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Old 23-06-2010, 11:03   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
My thinking is to use a drogue in normal storms, and a series drogue in a survival situation. I would favor the series drogue over a sea anchor because of consistent reports of horrible motion with sea anchors and parted lines on account of the high forces. The series drogue was specifically designed to address these latter two problems, and the reports are that the series drogue works as advertised.
The series drogue is NOT a sea anchor from the stern and you DO need to have the ability to steer the boat in order to keep stern into waves. The advantage of a series over a regular drogue is that it is less likely to ride and skip from astern under force, and that the forces are more evenly distributed.

When using a drogue from astern you want to keep the boat moving - not too fast and not too slow. The decision then begins on which drogue is best for your design.

For an introduction to storm management and testing of devices, read Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing"
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Old 23-06-2010, 11:04   #17
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Originally Posted by toelpel View Post
I am preparing for transatlantic cruise and would like to get some comments on the subject above. Thank you
Ok,

Point #1 is that in all likelihood you will not need either for a transatlantic crossing. So long as you are experienced enough and rigged to sail thru a simple gale you will most likely be just fine without either. In extremis, you can always make a temporary drogue with an anchor warp and some stuff tied on the end.

Point #2 If you do run into something stronger, if your routing has been at all good, the winds will be behind you (low above you) and you will want to run with it. You will progressive take down sail, until you are down to either completely bare poles or perhaps a storm jib. As it builds more some boat designs will surf (our current boat) and some others will not (Our previous boat). If the boat starts surfing you will want to put out a drogue, if it does not the just a warp (without a drogue) will often help the steering.

Point #3 If you have screwed up your routing so the storm is on the nose, you will probably try to fore-reach (fin/spade) or heave-to(long keel). If the waves build to the point where the boat feels unsettled and gets knocked hard by waves, then you might use the para-anchor. Or in situation #2 above, if your boat does not steer very well downwind (short fat hull with barn door rudder) you might try the para-anchor and not the drogue.

So, I would say . . . you probably don't need either, but I would pick the drogue as the first to carry as it is more likely to be used/needed (unless you have a boat design that can't be safely steering downwind). In the ideal world, with no cash or space constraints you carry both so you have all options available.
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Old 23-06-2010, 11:13   #18
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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
The series drogue is NOT a sea anchor from the stern and you DO need to have the ability to steer the boat in order to keep stern into waves. The advantage of a series over a regular drogue is that it is less likely to ride and skip from astern under force, and that the forces are more evenly distributed.
I have read over dozen accounts of use of a series drogue and all have stated that they did not steer the boat.

Hal Roth covers the series drogue in detail in his book, How to Sail Around the World, as he obviously favored it over the sea anchor. Roth provides quotes from several first-hand accounts of using series drogues.
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Old 23-06-2010, 11:22   #19
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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
you DO need to have the ability to steer the boat in order to keep stern into waves.
"The designer of the Jordan Series Drogue recommends that the crew go below and strap themselves in. The medium-pull [series] drogue is a passive device like the parachute anchor."

Storm Drogues and Sea Anchors

Because a series drogue is a passive device, it is more analogous to a sea anchor than a drogue.
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Old 23-06-2010, 11:38   #20
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Evans, which ones do you carry on your boat? I seem to recall you have the drogue and series drogue. In fact, I think your website directly influenced my thinking on this subject. You and Hal Roth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
Ok,

Point #1 is that in all likelihood you will not need either for a transatlantic crossing. So long as you are experienced enough and rigged to sail thru a simple gale you will most likely be just fine without either. In extremis, you can always make a temporary drogue with an anchor warp and some stuff tied on the end.

Point #2 If you do run into something stronger, if your routing has been at all good, the winds will be behind you (low above you) and you will want to run with it. You will progressive take down sail, until you are down to either completely bare poles or perhaps a storm jib. As it builds more some boat designs will surf (our current boat) and some others will not (Our previous boat). If the boat starts surfing you will want to put out a drogue, if it does not the just a warp (without a drogue) will often help the steering.

Point #3 If you have screwed up your routing so the storm is on the nose, you will probably try to fore-reach (fin/spade) or heave-to(long keel). If the waves build to the point where the boat feels unsettled and gets knocked hard by waves, then you might use the para-anchor. Or in situation #2 above, if your boat does not steer very well downwind (short fat hull with barn door rudder) you might try the para-anchor and not the drogue.

So, I would say . . . you probably don't need either, but I would pick the drogue as the first to carry as it is more likely to be used/needed (unless you have a boat design that can't be safely steering downwind). In the ideal world, with no cash or space constraints you carry both so you have all options available.
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Old 23-06-2010, 11:42   #21
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We have always left either the windvane or the autopilot steering when we have had the drogue out. It seems to us that it can not hurt to have the boat being steered. We do not (usually) hand steer when they are out (or any other time offshore).

We are definitely not a fan of 'go below and strap in'. We think you need to be watching conditions and keeping a feel for the waves, so you are aware as things change. Many boats get into trouble at the end of a storm, because the wave direction changes and the wind drops, so the boat wallows and gets hit on the side, and the crew is down below and not completely aware of the change in conditions.
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Old 23-06-2010, 11:56   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Believe what you will, but history shows...you need both.
I suspect this is more ancient than modern history, SaltyM.........
The days of clunkers slowly bashing around the globe going so slow that weather catches them before they know it is in my view dissappearing fast.

I'd respectfully suggest today anyone can more easily plan a passage to avoid the kind of weather these devices might require, and would be better placed first investing in the resource to do that before spending their change on this kind of kit.


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Old 23-06-2010, 12:02   #23
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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
We have always left either the windvane or the autopilot steering when we have had the drogue out. It seems to us that it can not hurt to have the boat being steered. We do not (usually) hand steer when they are out (or any other time offshore).

We are definitely not a fan of 'go below and strap in'. We think you need to be watching conditions and keeping a feel for the waves, so you are aware as things change. Many boats get into trouble at the end of a storm, because the wave direction changes and the wind drops, so the boat wallows and gets hit on the side, and the crew is down below and not completely aware of the change in conditions.
I'll agree with your point about needing to pay attention to conditions and that occurs outside.

But you do carry both, correct, the drogue and series drogue? I remember your comments about a group effort tying the cones to the line for the series drogue. I also seem to recall that you've been fortunate to have never used the series drogue. Let's hear it for weather routing.
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Old 23-06-2010, 12:16   #24
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It took me a while to find this:



"We do carry a sea anchor and three different drogues. As suggested above, we prefer the 'forereaching' and 'running with a drogue' techniques and believe the sea anchor is a generally bad heavy weather solution for a vessel Hawk's size - uncomfortable in use, prone to chafed & broken rodes and difficult to retrieve. I can only imagine using it in a case where we were dismasted off a lee shore with the engine also broken, although even then I would try the series drogue first and see if that stabilized the boat and reduced our drift sufficiently."

* * *

"If we are going downwind in really bad conditions, such as over 40kts blowing against a current, producing big steep waves, we use a drogue and Hawk really likes it. The drogue we have used most is a Galerider, set on a 600' rode (two 300' anchor lines tied together) with a bridle (a spare jib sheet tied to the rode with an icicle hitch, the rode led to a snatch block on one quarter, and the sheet to a snatch block on the other). We then set the autopilot or windvane to steer dead downwind. We retrieve this drogue by simply putting the rode on a winch or our anchor windlass and cranking it in."

"This is very safe and comfortable, however, the Galerider will occasionally pull out of a wave face, allowing Hawk to surf forward until the drogue catches the water again. To solve this problem, we got a second drogue (a Paratech Delta drogue), and modified it by putting a Spectra strop through its center (pic1 & pic2), so I can shackle it in at the 300' point on the rode. This 'two-element series drogue' eliminates the problem because one of the two drogues is in the water at all times. We also carry a complete Jordan series drogue with 150 cones, which is the proven, most common, solution among Southern Ocean cruising boats. However, this drogue is more difficult to recover than my 2-element system because it can not be as easily winched in. So far we have not been in conditions where we felt unsafe with the Galerider "

Seamanship. #9



Wow.
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Old 23-06-2010, 13:01   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
I have read over dozen accounts of use of a series drogue and all have stated that they did not steer the boat.

Hal Roth covers the series drogue in detail in his book, How to Sail Around the World, as he obviously favored it over the sea anchor. Roth provides quotes from several first-hand accounts of using series drogues.
Hiracer: All your sources are not aligned to my points, specious, mis-quoted, and secondary in nature.

The purpose of a drogue is to slow the boat to a comfortable speed so steering can be retained to keep the stern into the waves and to protect a quarter broach. Not too fast and not too slow. Period. End of discussion.

A drogue is NOT a sea anchor from the stern. Sea anchors are sometimes deployed over the stern, and you can go right ahead and try and deploy a LARGER than necesssary series drogue in this way, but not all boats are designed effectively to handle the loads from waves from that position. Canoe stern boats sometimes deploy in this manner but I know of no good results from reports. Albeit, sea anchors do not dead stop a boat in the water, but also allow the boat to drift downwind at a sub steering speed - whether you deploy from the stern or the bow.

Think about the difference. What makes a series drogue different from any other drogue?

Simple. The series drogue has a few advantages over conventional drogues by their physical design:

1) The stresses are more evenly distributed over the rode rather than on the end.
2) By evenly distributing the friction, the series drogue is also less likely to skip on a wave due to stresses pulling the boat by waves, as you see with other devices.

The disadvantages are that the series drogue is more difficult to retrieve, and that you will most likely blow out a few cones that will need replacement.

Be advised, if the S* hits the fan, and you are finding you want to switch to some parachute like device, it may be too late. Going on the foredeck can be suicidal. Choose your strategy carefully.
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Old 23-06-2010, 13:41   #26
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Originally Posted by Hiracer View Post
But you do carry both, correct, the drogue and series drogue?
I also seem to recall that you've been fortunate to have never used the series drogue.
Let's hear it for weather routing.
Yes, as you saw on our website we have actually carried three drogues (a galerider and a delta and a series). We have used the Galerider most, primarily because we know it best and know what to expect from it in a storm and how to manage and recover it. In the middle of a storm is not a time I like to be trying new things unless everything I know has already been tried and did not work.

We have used the series 'in practice' to be sure we know how to recover it, but so far never 'in anger'.

For most of us the big value is in 'passage routing' - that is picking the right general passage plan (eg what month to make a crossing and latitude to run along and where to turn corners around highs). Most of our boats are too slow to get the sort of value from 'on the passage weather routing' that the race boats get . . . . but ever for us 'slow boats' there is huge value to get even 50 miles further away from a storm center and to avoid getting hit while in a major current (gulf stream and Agulhas).

We have a para-anchor, and have tried it in practice, again to know how to handle it, but have never even come close to wanting to delopy it at sea. For reasons discussed in detail on that FAQ page.
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Old 23-06-2010, 14:14   #27
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apples and oranges

One is for stopping, the sea anchor/parachute, the other for running with the weather BUT AT A MUCH REDUCED SPEED, the drogue..

Might want both...
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Old 23-06-2010, 14:34   #28
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We are in agreement about most everything except for your statement that a series drogue requires a helmsman to steer and your implication that a series drogue is like a drogue. I maintain that a series drogue is more like a sea anchor (albeit deployed from the stern) partly because a drogue is a form of active defense, while a sea anchor and a series drogue offer passive defensives. Two of my posts directly pertained to this passive/active distinction.

I agree with your assessment about the differences between a sea anchor and drogue, except you left out one of the most important differences. A drogue will not protect from a massive wave pitchpoling the boat, while both a series drogue and sea anchor will. Between the latter two, the series drogue will protect from pitchpoling with significantly less force transmitted to the boat because the braking effect from a series drogue is radically different from that of a sea anchor. This moderate braking effect, coupled with the ability to pull the boat through a wave that otherwise would have pitchpoled the boat, is the core genius of Mr. Jordan's approach. In effect, the series drogue offers modulated braking, depending on the circumstances and the amount needed. It's a brilliant piece of simple yet effective engineering.

My last post was directed to Evans as it's from his website and illustrates what is on his boat, in response to my prior question to him. In my previous post, I was answering my own question, viz., Evans carries all three types of devices: A sea anchor, two drogues, and a series drogue. That's why I said "wow."

Note that I don't consider the series drogue and drogue to be of the same type, even though they share the word "drogue." Their functional use is too different from my perspective to be considered as a same type (for the reasons outlined above). So I prefer to think in terms of three types, not two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Hiracer: All your sources are not aligned to my points, specious, mis-quoted, and secondary in nature.

The purpose of a drogue is to slow the boat to a comfortable speed so steering can be retained to keep the stern into the waves and to protect a quarter broach. Not too fast and not too slow. Period. End of discussion.

A drogue is NOT a sea anchor from the stern. Sea anchors are sometimes deployed over the stern, and you can go right ahead and try and deploy a LARGER than necesssary series drogue in this way, but not all boats are designed effectively to handle the loads from waves from that position. Canoe stern boats sometimes deploy in this manner but I know of no good results from reports. Albeit, sea anchors do not dead stop a boat in the water, but also allow the boat to drift downwind at a sub steering speed - whether you deploy from the stern or the bow.

Think about the difference. What makes a series drogue different from any other drogue?

Simple. The series drogue has a few advantages over conventional drogues by their physical design:

1) The stresses are more evenly distributed over the rode rather than on the end.
2) By evenly distributing the friction, the series drogue is also less likely to skip on a wave due to stresses pulling the boat by waves, as you see with other devices.

The disadvantages are that the series drogue is more difficult to retrieve, and that you will most likely blow out a few cones that will need replacement.

Be advised, if the S* hits the fan, and you are finding you want to switch to some parachute like device, it may be too late. Going on the foredeck can be suicidal. Choose your strategy carefully.
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Old 23-06-2010, 15:11   #29
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A series drogue will aid an incapacitated crew and pull the boat through a pitchpoling wave. A regular drogue will do neither. For those two reasons, I don't view a series drogue as the functional equivalent of a regular drogue. A series drogue really functions more like a sea anchor. By all accounts, a series drogue is much easier to deploy than a sea anchor (albeit probably equally difficult to retrieve). I think it's a disservice to categorize the series drogue as a drogue. The two really perform two totally different functions.
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Old 23-06-2010, 15:12   #30
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That is absolutely NOT correct about the difference between a sea anchor and series drogue. A sea anchor / rode SHOULD allow elasticity and movement through a wave by the bow just as you are proposing a series drogue does in your explain. You need to make sure you choose the correct size of sea anchor and rode.

In either case, a passive defense from the stern of a boat is highly dangerous unless your boat is designed in means to be defended in this way, and even then it is suspicious. The stern of a boat (incl cockpit), unlike the bow, is not designed to take on breaking waves at sea as you suggest; moreover the mass is not distributed to the bow of the boat and the windage correct to be able to make the stern of the boat face into the waves automatically and without risk of massive swamping or rolling. This is especially true in a cross sea. It's irresponsible to suggest otherwise.

Again, the series drogue should be sized and used as any other drogue for the advantages I stated above.

I've given you design reasons. good luck
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