Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-07-2018, 17:02   #31
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,378
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
I tested a lot of drogues, including the Seabrake for articles. At least the fabric version is no different in drag vs. speed than any other drogue. They ALL vary as [COLOR=Red]force ~ V^2 x area
Good info Thinwater. I always suspected that was more or less the case. The original HSD has four flaps that pull into the drogue and are supposed to create extra drag at higher speeds. The spring tension can be varied to increase or decrease the flap activation speed from about 4 to 8 knots from memory. It would be facinating to test one and see if it made any real difference in practice under controlled conditions.

My parents were very impresed with how it held the 20 tonne boat at near six knots and prevented surfing in very big seas, but it also allowed the boat to keep good speed up in the troughs. My mother described it as feeling like the boat was about to start surfing and having someone gently tap the brakes and bring things back under control.

The multi element drogue sounds very promising. I have a slightly too small series drogue. It may go well as the last element to deploy.
__________________

__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 17:03   #32
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 4,316
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Thinwater,
What was your impression of the Galerider?
__________________

hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 17:37   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 48
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

just a question..
can you sail down wind in a heave to?
I thought you have sail into the wind..beam reach or higher..


I thought the idea of a drouge was to add effective mass to the boat.. to help keep from broaching in the waves..


-dkenny64
dkenny64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 19:31   #34
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Auckland
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 459
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Internet expert and trying to keep it that way.

My understanding is that you first try active management of the boat and then turn to passive techniques.

Sort of in increasing order
Run off
Heaven to
Traditional drogue - gale rider
Jordan drogue

Run off as you have sea way
Heave to to slow down and get rest
Traditional drouge only when the above donít work and you are going too fast
Jordan when a traditional wonít work

So I spoke to a gentleman who lost his boat. Details aside his take away was he deployed his drogue too early, it slowed him too much, allowed a wave to smack him hard, he took a knock down that killed his engine.

From my megar experience I find that AFTER the storm, with little or no wind but still with big waves is menacing. Especially in an under powered boat. Iíve never had it bad, but Ive experienced not to bad and it was miserable. I can see how it could be dangerous. Blah!

Thatís a lot of crap to lug around. So I have a Gale rider but not a JSD. I do have 900í of 7/8Ē line, that should help.

Many have said that the tactic you start the storm with is the tactic you will maintain throughout the storm as the conditions will be too big to try switching if/when you decide your first tactic is not working well enough. Donít even consider planning that you will be crawling around deck in 50+ knots and commensurate seas.

Just imagine the size of the seas when you decide that running is too dangerous - and your next step is to turn broadside to the seas as you turn to heave to. Then when that begins to be dangerous due to breaking seas, now you want to turn sideways again? And say you set a Galerider or similar - the only way youíll be able to switch to a JSD when the conditions get bigger is to cut the Galerider free. Are you sure you want to be messing around on deck at that point?

Pick your ultimate storm survival method and accept that sometimes you will go to it earlier than it really is needed. Some will advise to have both upwind (parachute anchor) and downwind (speed-limiting drogue) options.

Some boats are better suited to one method or the other. Regardless of what you pick, prepare it for auto-deployment from your cockpit at the start of every passage.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 19:42   #35
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,971
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Thinwater,
What was your impression of the Galerider?
The reviews (several) are in Practical Sailor.

The Galerider is lower in drag for a given size, but provides the most constant tension. It is also more stable at higher speeds since it is less prone to sudden surfacing. Thus, it is better for speed control for faster boats (catamaran delivery guys like them) and emergency steering, and less so for extreme storm management. I might carry a Galerider and something else, hoping to only use the Galerider.


I tested several, including the Galerider, Seabrake, and Delta Drogue in near gale conditions both for emergency steering and speed control. With some jib and an adjustable bridle, broad reaching was smooth as silk, like someone turned the wind down by 10 knots. Sure, you can probably hand steer through most storms, but a drogue can simply make it easier. That's nice when you're tired.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
Writing full-time since 2014
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 21:08   #36
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Seychelles
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,614
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Good info Thinwater. I always suspected that was more or less the case. The original HSD has four flaps that pull into the drogue and are supposed to create extra drag at higher speeds. The spring tension can be varied to increase or decrease the flap activation speed from about 4 to 8 knots from memory. It would be facinating to test one and see if it made any real difference in practice under controlled conditions.

My parents were very impresed with how it held the 20 tonne boat at near six knots and prevented surfing in very big seas, but it also allowed the boat to keep good speed up in the troughs. My mother described it as feeling like the boat was about to start surfing and having someone gently tap the brakes and bring things back under control.

The multi element drogue sounds very promising. I have a slightly too small series drogue. It may go well as the last element to deploy.
This is good to hear. I have the sea brake and have never had to use it. This is the first time Ive heard a report of its effectiveness.
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 21:30   #37
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,378
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Saying that it was one of the old solid plastic seabrakes, not the new Burke canvas versions. They ended up buying a canvas version and giving me the old plastic one, because of the space it took up. They haven't used the canvas one in anger yet.

I'll experiment with the plastic one. I can see it being useful to help out the windvane downwind in fresh conditions with the spring tension wound up to 7.5 knots or so. I am not real fond of surfing when using the windvane, and it may just stop my lightweight boat taking off down a steep wave and broaching.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 21:44   #38
Registered User
 
daletournier's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Seychelles
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,614
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Saying that it was one of the old solid plastic seabrakes, not the new Burke canvas versions. They ended up buying a canvas version and giving me the old plastic one, because of the space it took up. They haven't used the canvas one in anger yet.

I'll experiment with the plastic one. I can see it being useful to help out the windvane downwind in fresh conditions with the spring tension wound up to 7.5 knots or so. I am not real fond of surfing when using the windvane, and it may just stop my lightweight boat taking off down a steep wave and broaching.
Surfing is the only time I don't fully rely on my Hydrovane. More precisely when I start surfing in bigger swells to much. I'll engage the autopilot and leave the Hydrovane operating as well. Only done this a couple of times.
daletournier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2018, 23:09   #39
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,378
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

^^ I normally try to keep under surfing speeds, by reducing sail or if I am already down to pocket handkerchief jib I get the drogue out. I just don't like the extra load on the rudder, the sudden accelerations and deceleration and the higher probablity of a high speed broach.

I think it is best to either have enough sail up to keep the boat surfing early and under control on every wave, or slow down enough to prevent it. The worst case is to start surfing late on the steepest part of a big wave and then rapidly accelerate down the steep face.

The transition from displacement to surfing and then back can be an issue for many heavy cruising boats. It is no where near so much of an problem for a lightweight racing sled.

The ability to run the hydrovane and the AP in tandem sounds handy. Hard to do with a Servo pendulum vane, though I suppose a tillerpilot drive solves the apparent wind issue. Saying that I have surfed with my old fleming windvane, and it coped better than I did, I guess on my heavy boats it's mostly happening in strong winds where the apparent doesn't shift to much.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 00:21   #40
Registered User
 
Sojourner's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Florence, Italy
Boat: 53' Amel Super Maramu
Posts: 183
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Many have said that the tactic you start the storm with is the tactic you will maintain throughout the storm as the conditions will be too big to try switching if/when you decide your first tactic is not working well enough. Donít even consider planning that you will be crawling around deck in 50+ knots and commensurate seas.

Just imagine the size of the seas when you decide that running is too dangerous - and your next step is to turn broadside to the seas as you turn to heave to. Then when that begins to be dangerous due to breaking seas, now you want to turn sideways again? And say you set a Galerider or similar - the only way youíll be able to switch to a JSD when the conditions get bigger is to cut the Galerider free. Are you sure you want to be messing around on deck at that point?

Pick your ultimate storm survival method and accept that sometimes you will go to it earlier than it really is needed. Some will advise to have both upwind (parachute anchor) and downwind (speed-limiting drogue) options.

Some boats are better suited to one method or the other. Regardless of what you pick, prepare it for auto-deployment from your cockpit at the start of every passage.
THIS I guess was my main issue/question.... and also kind of like reefing a little at night as a cruising practice vs as needed, some people hate to lose the miles, others hate to lose the sleep If running before something that will get bad (but not survival conditions necessarily, and I'm down to scraps of sail and it becomes too much, I think I'd be leaning toward the drogue and continuing on rather than turning back and heaving to, simply because if it gets worse I'm already on my final tactic and have to do nothing but hunker down inside. If it doesn't get worse then I lose some miles, but that's fine.

Thanks everyone for all the discussion! I'm reading the coast guard report (which I somehow missed) right now....
__________________
3 cats, 3 queers, endless wake, endless love!
https://www.facebook.com/anendlesswake/
https://anendlesswake.com/
Sojourner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 00:36   #41
Registered User
 
Sojourner's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Florence, Italy
Boat: 53' Amel Super Maramu
Posts: 183
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Finished reading the coast guard report. Their conclusions:

JSD = great
Single drogue off stern = difficult to keep in position
Sea-anchor off bow = NOT recommended

I wonder if this is like the anchor debate? Everyone had their favorites for liking bruces and plows, but new gen seems to beat them in most every test. Yet my marina is filled with bruces and plows.... I'm 1 of 100 with fat Rocna hanging off the front
__________________
3 cats, 3 queers, endless wake, endless love!
https://www.facebook.com/anendlesswake/
https://anendlesswake.com/
Sojourner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 00:36   #42
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Somewhere in Patagonia
Posts: 4,416
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Worth a read from Page 57...

https://archive.org/stream/tothegrea...48mbp_djvu.txt

This was in a weather system the same or similar to the one I draw attention to here ... The South Pacific Rat Hole

Varua was 50 tons, 70 foot.....

Enough to make you take up lawn bowls....
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 00:48   #43
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Somewhere in Patagonia
Posts: 4,416
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
......Another option I would love to see more people try is two conventional drogues (Seabrake, Delta, Small Shark) in series with 100-200 feet of non-stretch line between them. They seem to work a lot like a JSD in this configuration, with fewer handling problems and more alternative uses (steering and speed limiting, neither of which a JSD is good at even if shortened). .......
Thanks for the tip... I always just carried the second one as a spare.... for when I lost the first one... I was on the point of selling it...
El Pinguino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 11:35   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 150
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

One issue I haven't seen much comment on is whether or not a stern drogue could potentially interfere with/damage the self-steering vane. My boat, like many others, has a forward raking narrow transom and a bridle attached to the corners is likely to foul the self steering vane if the boat gets at much of an angle to the drogue. Is this an issue on many boats, or does the drogue tend to stream dead aft so it's not a problem?
osprey877 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 15:05   #45
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,378
Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

We had our vane damaged by the drogue once. Not really sure how it happened but it was a pretty wild night, and I think the drogue line got caught under the servo rudder.

I wonder if pulling some stiff tubing over the bridle legs would help. Saying that it doesn't seem to have been an issue with the more steady series drogue.
__________________

__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
drogue

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jordan Series Drogue vs Paratech Sea Anchor toelpel Seamanship & Boat Handling 114 26-11-2015 14:27
For Sale: Jordan Series Drogue infinitysail Classifieds Archive 9 13-05-2012 08:30
Jordan Series Drogue vs Para-Anchor ? markpj23 Health, Safety & Related Gear 5 30-10-2011 20:17
For Sale: Jordan Series Drogue Sirocco Classifieds Archive 8 15-07-2011 14:20



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:21.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.