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Old 10-07-2018, 11:05   #16
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Thats true that you will sail downwind wirh the drogue at 1-2 knots. You'd probably drift at a similar rate if heaved to?
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:09   #17
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

The only way to get out the storm quickly would seem to be to forereach upwind slowly but that might be really hardwork if shorthanded or tired or if seas were very steep wirh breaking waves?
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Old 10-07-2018, 11:45   #18
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
I don't think there's a binary choice here. The speed of the storm front, your position within it, the development of the sea state, the barometric direction and speed, proximity to the contential shelf, lee room, number of crew, all would influence my decision to heave to. Some pretty awful conditions are at the end of storms, or even at the edge, but if you are going to get unavoidably clobbered, I think I would prefer to keep moving if I could, and if I was cracking hull speed down 20 foot wave fronts, I'd want to do so with a drogue.


You've got a boat with a good reputation, but it's also a damn big boat. The forces involved are large. But so is the stowage. I can't see why you wouldn't bring both a drogue and a sea anchor. Heaving to as a gale passes over is one response, but running off to get out of the dangerous quarter of a hurricane is another.

Indeed. It's definitely not binary, and it's not something you can learn in 20 minutes on an Internet forum. How to deal with storms at sea is a deep subject, and can be a matter of life and death, so requires some study.


Just some random tips or comments to what has been written above, which is mostly good, but pay attention to the issue of maintaining steerage and directional stability and avoiding getting broached -- a primary task. Do NOT run off under bare poles without a drogue out. Why? Because the center of wind resistance needs to be far ahead of the keel in order to keep the boat steady on course downwind. Your boat under bare poles, ESPECIALLY a ketch, ESPECIALLY if you have some crap hung out over your stern like solar panels, davits, etc. (which you should rip off if you want your boat to be truly ready for storm conditions), is inherently unstable. You need to always keep some jib out, and when the wind is too strong for that, you need to get the drogue out.



Heaving to is fine for intermediate conditions, but people disagree about whether it is worthwhile at all for storm conditions. I wouldn't.
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Old 10-07-2018, 18:40   #19
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

I am not quite understanding at what point it would be better to run bare poles as opposed to a fourth reef or Storm Trysail. I have beenin 55knot winds south of Minerva Reef with 16 -18’ sea and swell with storm Trysail and storm jib for more than 24 hours. The important point and I mean important is when properly Heaved Too the bow is 30degrees into the wind. That is as safe a position to approach the swell as is possible i. my opinion. If I had thought there was more wind coming I might have added to this the Drogue. To my mind running with bare poles is quite possiblythe most dangerous tactic possible. Lately I have been watching Skip Novaks Heavy Weather Series and at no time has he mentioned running with bare poles. He doesn’t even like the idea of a Drogue tho he has one and says he might put it up in anger but would never practice it due to the many potential dangers associated with them. He likes a Main with a fourth reef and a storm Trysail heaved to...Period. I have heaved to quite a few times and just wonder why so many think there is a better option. Remember if properly Heaved To you will have your bow 30degrees into the wind and swells. The Kalaren was running bare poles. The forces on your rudder and the possibility of broching or worse yet Pitch Poling in this out of control tactic should be obvious. I say buy a drogue but you first storm tactic should nearly if not always be Heaving To having practised it before hand so you can do it properly. If you felt a need to do more you could add the drogue as explained by Larry Pardey and this would also have the effect of much less strain on the boat where the drogue is attached.
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Old 10-07-2018, 19:08   #20
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Having already fitted drogue chain plates to the vessel I am refitting/restoring I can assure you that IF done properly it is a lot of work. I did the machining and welding prep for fabrication my self; but contracted out the welding of ferules in the ends of the chain plates to give maximum load bearing area to the shackle pins.



In another thread I previously described the process we used to align the threaded holes in the backing plates on the inside of the hull and the additional reinforcement that the backing plates were set in. IF you undertake this be sure to use use never-size grease on the stainless steel screw threads.



The strength requirement for this work was described by Mr. Don Jordan as the vessel should be capable of being hoisted from the bridle by a crane without damage to the hull.



When one does their own work seldom is consideration given to what ones time is worth. Perhaps $1,000 to $3,000 depending on interior access. I did this work before any of the fuel tanks and machinery were installed. Though crawling under the cockpit floor felt like being a rat in a tunnel.
Theoretical talk is cheap...action is a serious struggle.



BTW I do not own the drogue yet so I have never used one.
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Old 10-07-2018, 21:40   #21
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Regarding bare poles. Tactics differ depending on the situation and the boat. I've run before a gale twice, once as mentioned earlier with a sheeted tight jib and Hydrovane and once under bare poles, Hydrovane and autopilot. On both occasions the boat felt under control, different boats and different sea conditions.

Another experienced friend ran under bare poles in his Amel with 55k winds. They were playing cards downstairs.

The call gets made at the time by the guy that's there, the consequences good or bad are owned by them.
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Old 10-07-2018, 21:56   #22
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Yeah, I've run under bare poles with no issues. It much easier to deply a drogue, and there is no issue with having to get sails down if the wind keeps building.

A series drogue has the benefit of being a good solution if it all goes wrong. Even without a mast it will still work.
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Old 11-07-2018, 08:36   #23
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

I have the Jordan Series drogue but fortunately have never had to use it. Nice to have it in the back of your mind as a last resort. I have recently purchased another drogue type device called a Seabrake by Abernathy. They don’t make them anymore but there are a few for sale occasionally on eBay and local swaps.

It appears to be much easier to deploy and retrieve which has always been my concern with the JSD. A bridle is not needed in general but I still not “prohibited” in their manual.

I will try to post an image of one so you are not confused with another similarly sounding product. http://sailaustralia.org.au/site/yac...lsize/2626.jpg
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Old 11-07-2018, 12:30   #24
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by northwestsailor View Post
I have the Jordan Series drogue but fortunately have never had to use it. Nice to have it in the back of your mind as a last resort. I have recently purchased another drogue type device called a Seabrake by Abernathy. They don’t make them anymore but there are a few for sale occasionally on eBay and local swaps.

It appears to be much easier to deploy and retrieve which has always been my concern with the JSD. A bridle is not needed in general but I still not “prohibited” in their manual.

I will try to post an image of one so you are not confused with another similarly sounding product. http://sailaustralia.org.au/site/yac...lsize/2626.jpg
I have the same - but different - Seabrake .... the 'soft' version of your original 'hard' one... https://www.burkemarine.com.au/products/seabrake-gp24 ...in fact I have two of them.... and have never used either one....
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Old 11-07-2018, 12:45   #25
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
.......

I've heard so many great things about the drogue, but also know that heaving to is the go-to for a boat like mine. All things being equal, which would be better/safer? Or are they six of one, half dozen of the other?
I think it depends..... sometimes running makes sense , other times it doesn't.

When running I have never found the need to trail a drogue... just lucky I guess.

Heaving to/lying ahull/ plugging away slowly to windward? Done the latter two a few times.... if a bit of real rubbish is coming your way that can be the quickest way of getting clear .... think TRS and safe semicircle.... and very early action....
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Old 11-07-2018, 14:19   #26
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Why not just read the original US Coast Guard Report? It very much considered boats like the Maramu. The risk with heaving to is a large breaking wave, which can lift, drop, and roll the boat. But read the report.



https://www.sailrite.com/PDF/DrogueReport.pdf
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Old 11-07-2018, 15:25   #27
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by northwestsailor View Post
I have the Jordan Series drogue but fortunately have never had to use it. Nice to have it in the back of your mind as a last resort. I have recently purchased another drogue type device called a Seabrake by Abernathy. They don’t make them anymore but there are a few for sale occasionally on eBay and local swaps.

It appears to be much easier to deploy and retrieve which has always been my concern with the JSD. A bridle is not needed in general but I still not “prohibited” in their manual.

I will try to post an image of one so you are not confused with another similarly sounding product. http://sailaustralia.org.au/site/yac...lsize/2626.jpg
I have the same one. They do have a small design flaw with the supplied allen key shackle, in that it cant be moused. My folks lost there's somewhere east of the Chatham Islands in a big blow. But they were so impressed with it's performance they bought another.

I've used the smaller plastic one with success. I think the fabric ones are designed to work in the same way. But I do really like the adjustable string tension concept for very low drag at slow speeds and the sudden braking action over 6 knots. Very good bits of kit that are no longer made. Too expensive and bulky.

Around 6:30 on this video shows the tank testing.

https://youtu.be/bOEWo4x_N44
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Old 11-07-2018, 16:06   #28
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

just my thoughts..might have been said before..


Have you read Rescue in the Pacific.the book.. you should..


heave too.. works if you mast is up and you can heave too..
so what if you cannot heavy to...
then you need the drougue anchor..
even that might not be enough..


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Old 11-07-2018, 16:44   #29
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
I have the same one. They do have a small design flaw with the supplied allen key shackle, in that it cant be moused. My folks lost there's somewhere east of the Chatham Islands in a big blow. But they were so impressed with it's performance they bought another.

I've used the smaller plastic one with success. I think the fabric ones are designed to work in the same way. But I do really like the adjustable string tension concept for very low drag at slow speeds and the sudden braking action over 6 knots. Very good bits of kit that are no longer made. Too expensive and bulky.

Around 6:30 on this video shows the tank testing.

https://youtu.be/bOEWo4x_N44

I tested a lot of drogues, including the Seabrake for articles. At least the fabric version is no different in drag vs. speed than any other drogue. They ALL vary as force ~ V^2 x area, and the required area does not vary much with the design (Galerider excepted--since it is a strainer, it needs to be bigger).



I do like the Seabrake. Lots of drag and more stable than most.


Another option I would love to see more people try is two conventional drogues (Seabrake, Delta, Small Shark) in series with 100-200 feet of non-stretch line between them. They seem to work a lot like a JSD in this configuration, with fewer handling problems and more alternative uses (steering and speed limiting, neither of which a JSD is good at even if shortened). A few cruisers have done this successfully, but more experience is needed. The primary limitations of a single drogue are that it runs too near the surface (the second will run deeper) and that a single steep wave can make it unstable (a second drogue eliminates this risk).
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Old 11-07-2018, 16:57   #30
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue or Heave to?

Internet expert and trying to keep it that way.

My understanding is that you first try active management of the boat and then turn to passive techniques.

Sort of in increasing order
Run off
Heaven to
Traditional drogue - gale rider
Jordan drogue

Run off as you have sea way
Heave to to slow down and get rest
Traditional drouge only when the above don’t work and you are going too fast
Jordan when a traditional won’t work

So I spoke to a gentleman who lost his boat. Details aside his take away was he deployed his drogue too early, it slowed him too much, allowed a wave to smack him hard, he took a knock down that killed his engine.

From my megar experience I find that AFTER the storm, with little or no wind but still with big waves is menacing. Especially in an under powered boat. I’ve never had it bad, but Ive experienced not to bad and it was miserable. I can see how it could be dangerous. Blah!

That’s a lot of crap to lug around. So I have a Gale rider but not a JSD. I do have 900’ of 7/8” line, that should help.
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