Jordan Series Drogue experience

[conachair]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

The cones are slipstreaming each other so the drag equation does not work in this case.

The coastguard measurements came out at approx 0.6 x velocity squared. See p38 of the report.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Going back to my original assertion: in support of my argument that stretchy line is better as a leader is figure 24C, pg 53 of the USCG evaluation report for the Jordan Series Drogue which shows increasing peak load in the leader with increasing stiffness. http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pd...uardreport.pdf

The relatively short leader does not offer much in the way of shock absorption when compared to the cones themselves. It has been debated several times here on CF and the consensus I took away was that a stiff line had advantages, some of which are:

1) Non-stretchy line reduces acceleration/deceleration of boat thus reducing F=M*A loads on the attachments and leader.
2) Non-stretchy line does not heat up thus preserving the strength of the line.
3) Lighter line makes it easier to store, deploy and retrieve.

But what really matters more than the type of line is that we have it on board and know how to use it. Retrieval is one of the common concerns with the JSD and this thread offers an interesting method of retrieval that should help when conditions are calm enough.

[captain58sailin]

Getting "pooped" only has to happen once. There is a USCG video out there that shows a large commercial fishing boat running with seas and he loses power, it took exactly 2 waves to roll him over, I don't know where the link is or I would post it. It is not the same as running before the sea with a drogue, unless the drogue line were to part. I would be much more comfortable putting the drogue off of my bow and keep my head into it. I like a drogue for heavy weather, I just don't want it on my stern. So we will agree to disagree. All the best.

[ontherocks83]

Has anyone had experience with a JSD from ace sail makers in Connecticut? If I remember right they are the only one Jordan authorized to call it a Jordan Series Drogue. Everything else is technically just a series drogue......kind of like all skill saws are circular saws but not all circular saws are skill saws....... I would think they might have some input on how long the cones should last and quality of materials

[Caracal]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Getting "pooped" only has to happen once. There is a USCG video out there that shows a large commercial fishing boat running with seas and he loses power, it took exactly 2 waves to roll him over, I don't know where the link is or I would post it. It is not the same as running before the sea with a drogue, unless the drogue line were to part. I would be much more comfortable putting the drogue off of my bow and keep my head into it. I like a drogue for heavy weather, I just don't want it on my stern. So we will agree to disagree. All the best.

I don't think you're aware of the difference between a sea anchor and a drogue. A drogue does not stop you dead. And if you are aware of the differences, it makes me wonder why you would choose to put a drogue off of the stem, considering you would then go backwards at 2-4 knots on average, almost guaranteeing damage - all because of some fear of being pooped.

As for your example, you even say it wasn't using a drogue, yet you think it is comparable for some odd reason. Edit: And the boat in your example rolled, which of course it did, because there were nothing to hold the stern.

[Talbot]

Some interesting points made in this thread. Like others, I am sure that the boat speed had a major part to play in the fraying. I was very surprised to see that you only have 150 drogues on your system. I told my supplier what boat I had and they specified a 150 drogue kit for me - and my boat may be a lot heavier built, but it is also a lot smaller.

A lot of the force on a cat comes from the wind, so a lightly-built boat would need more drogues than a smaller heavy-built boat of the same weight.

I purchased mine from series drogue, and I also got a deployment bag as well

[Mainebristol]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Rain Dog,

Consider it a warning, and use your hot knife to heat seal all your cones. It really won't take too long, and will provide an easy reinforcing. You could also turn down very narrow hems (like on a handkerchief), on all the cones (yikes!), even by hand, while you were chatting, or something. Once done, the protection is there. I still worry about making the cones smaller. Would you have to add a tail with a few cones to make up for the area lost, even by such small hems? Boy, I would like to know that! :-)

Another tactic might be to add a hem of reinforcing material, which would also stiffen the lip, helping to hold it open. Tedious in the extreme, I know, but what's a Winter for?

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Getting "pooped" only has to happen once. There is a USCG video out there that shows a large commercial fishing boat running with seas and he loses power, it took exactly 2 waves to roll him over, I don't know where the link is or I would post it. It is not the same as running before the sea with a drogue, unless the drogue line were to part. I would be much more comfortable putting the drogue off of my bow and keep my head into it. I like a drogue for heavy weather, I just don't want it on my stern. So we will agree to disagree. All the best.

I understand your concern but I don't think you can compare a commercial fishing vessel to a sail boat. For example if you were on a newer traditional mono hull, one can expect that you would have a walk through transom and the ability to put in washboard hatches (i.e. newer Catalina's and I only use that example because I am familiar with them). If you get pooped the washboard hatches should be able to handle the water with minimal leakage and the open transom will allow for very quick drainage of the cockpit. All the while the drogue will keep you from pitch poling if that wave that pooped you is a breaker.

[robert sailor]

I have to tell you that an open transom would not be that cool with a big breaking wave hitting the stern as most companion way doors/boards are not all that strong but I do agree that it would be great for getting rid of the water after taking the hit. Fortunately cruisers with these types of boats tend to not sail in areas that are known for storms,

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I have to tell you that an open transom would not be that cool with a big breaking wave hitting the stern as most companion way doors/boards are not all that strong but I do agree that it would be great for getting rid of the water after taking the hit. Fortunately cruisers with these types of boats tend to not sail in areas that are known for storms,

Custom washboards....Maybe with a little metal reinforcement to help. (sorry being a little bit of a smart a$$ and being a little bit serious)

I get your point and obviously avoiding would be the best but if I were to go on a long passage and big water would be a possibility I would definitely be designing my own wash boards.

I'm a little bit of a zombie apocalypse kind of person so everything tends to be double redundant and over kill for what I need. That goes at home too. I like to prep for EOTW and know that what ever I encounter wont be as bad as I prepared for.....that's the theory anyways

[goboatingnow]

I have to tell you that an open transom would not be that cool with a big breaking wave hitting the stern as most companion way doors/boards are not all that strong but I do agree that it would be great for getting rid of the water after taking the hit. Fortunately cruisers with these types of boats tend to not sail in areas that are known for storms,

really Northern European, Western approaches , so no open transoms round here then!!!!!

Open transoms are THE best cockpits because they clear enormous amounts of water FAST.
dave

[robert sailor]

Well we agree, the cockpits do get rid of water real quick. My comments were directed to weak companion way doors/boards on "some boats!

[Greggegner]

Nice read, but thought I was back at eng school for a while. On the nerdy stuff, you will need to take into account the movement of the water from the cone in front and the pressure release from the hole in the end.

I have two points, first only the beginning cones were an issue so maybe you just seal or reinforce the first cones. The second is maybe this is a one use and then repair device. Everything is a balance of risk, effort, money and time that each captain must evaluate.

[Caracal]

If only the beginning cones, I would think that using dyneema as the line would stop most of the "extra" movement of the front cones, because the pull will act on more cones from the get-go. In the extreme, a thinnish nylon line will have the front cones move with the boat, before the rest of the cones will come into play.

Edit:

Which also means that you probably do not need to strengthen all the cones, even if you use nylon, but can make do with stregthening the first, say, 15-20 cones.

[pacifica]

My experience is that sealing the cone fabric edges stopped further damage. Fortunately the initial damage was slight.

I also used a special deployment 'bag', also from a Sailrite kit that worked very well on the 3 occasions.

My boat heaves-to fairly well, and I carry a 14' parachute sea anchor along with some good snatch blocks, but I've never tried the parachute/bridle system.

With the JSD at times we were pointing straight down the apparently vertical fronts of seas, and we could feel the initial acceleration of freefall.Very quickly followed by the bungy like deceleration as the JSD arrested our descent. Breathtaking.
Occasionally we were on a wave that was heavily breaking like a surf wave, which would involve us in the green water.
A nearby Bering Sea fishboat spent two days powering very slowly into the seas, unable to fish (on the subsequent flight out of Dutch Harbour one of the fishboat deckhands showed my crew a photo he took of their anemometer: 136 km/hr or 70knots more or less).
That method is clearly unavailable to us with only 50 hp aboard. That would also entail staying awake, which we didn't. I slept relatively well , chocked into the narrow pilotberth.
Once I was fairly confident that we were going to survive, upright and dry, we could indulge in eating and sleeping and reading.
Nowadays many of us are not cruising in deep ,heavy full-keeled sailboats with low rigs that were designed to survive just about anything while hove-to.
Nowadays some cruisers seem to accept knockdowns as part of offshore sailing, perhaps because of racing experience and influence. I really, really wanted zero knockdowns, no rolling over and no pitchpoling.
I was extremely satisfied with the experience stern-to with the JSD.
BUT it assumed that my 'submarine' type companionway doors would not be breached and that the JSD attachments were very strong and not subject to chafe.
I think we would have been S.O.L. if we had lost the drogue in the gale.
A moment of levity came when a Japanese cargo ship came within 2 miles of us at the height of the blow, identified us on his AIS as a 'pleasure vessel' and hailed us on VHF. The ship's master asked us "are you having pleasure?!"
While few people would deliberately set out to get into such a gale at sea, having prepared for it and encountered it, the experience becomes a treasured memory to be replayed repeatedly in quiet moments.