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cwyckham · 03-02-2014, 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

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In my opinion, the place for lying bows-to a para anchor is the case described by the Pardeys -- as a supplement to being stably hove-to. If you are in a stable hove-to position, then the para anchor adds more stability, and you are in a bomb-proof passive position which allows you to go below and go to sleep -- not quite like the active position of running off trailing a drogue. This might be a good thing to have in your bag of tricks, supplementary to the drogue, if you are sailing in high latitudes or with risk of really extreme weather. IF, of course, your boat heaves-to well. And of course, rigging it from the foredeck in survival conditions is an entirely different subject and another huge disadvantage to this tactic . . .

I would never lie to a para anchor without being hove-to, if I had a drogue or even warps to trail while running off. And I think for my boat, the drogue (or extra-long warps) would be all I could even imagine needing, as my boat behaves very well running off in even very tough weather without trailing anything. Running off in a F10 under basically bare poles (a little scrap of jib for stability, like the feather on an arrow) is fine on my boat -- comfortable, autopilot copes well.

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That's a great point about a para anchor being useful if hove to. That solves the yawing problem. It may also reduce the issues with parachutes being shock loaded as there's more of a constant pressure on it.

I think you are in correctly lumping a JSD in with other smaller drogues, though. There's a big difference between warps or a small gale-rider type drogue and a JSD. The former is intended to slow a boat somewhat and to provide directional stability while running. I would characterize that as an active strategy. The JSD is really designed to slow a boat right down to a couple knots and hold it steady. It is a passive strategy. Both certainly have their place.

conachair · 04-02-2014, 05:50

First, another big thanks to those who have been out there for sharing their experience.
I'm getting close to being sorted if the boat heads towards high latitudes with a Jordan drogue off Ebay, just need to weld some flat bar somewhere to attach the bridle legs to .
A few thoughts....

Setting up a system like this for offshore is, I think, a difficult process. One problem is trying to know how you yourself will react under extreme conditions. From solo offshore passages I know memory isn't a good source of info for what actually happened, often when comparing the log with memory there are substantial differences, we seem to have a somewhat rose tinted spectacles view of how well we perform .

So I think tending towards the pessimistic may be a good idea when trying to predict how things will be when it gets nasty offshore. We might not be as tough as we like to think we are.
Down to practicalities, yet to try it but I'm fairly sure it would not be difficult to rig up a retrieval system by rigging a loop from the cockpit to the anchor windlass capstan wheel, would be handy to have some sort of powered pulling system offshore solo anyway. And anything pre rigged which means not having to leave the cockpit is a good thing.

One thing I'm a bit wary of is using a Jordan series drogue is a bit all or nothing, and once it's out it's out, I can't see any kind of half way house - any thoughts anyone?

Thanks again

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transmitterdan · 04-02-2014, 06:10

If deployed in anger any drogue or parachute is going to be out there until conditions abate. You could always cut the drogue away if desired. If properly weighted it will sink. Not sure why one would want to do that though.

**Dockhead** · 04-02-2014, 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

If deployed in anger any drogue or parachute is going to be out there until conditions abate. You could always cut the drogue away if desired. If properly weighted it will sink. Not sure why one would want to do that though.

If you're bearing down on a lee shore you might want to cut it away.

But otherwise I would think most people would be content to just hang out in comfort until conditions have improved to the point where this is actually boring.

conachair · 04-02-2014, 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

If deployed in anger any drogue or parachute is going to be out there until conditions abate. You could always cut the drogue away if desired. If properly weighted it will sink. Not sure why one would want to do that though.

I was actually thinking of the other way round, if things are not too bad and you just want to slow down a bit with some sort of smaller drogue device but all hell breaks loose and you are in survival conditions, then swaping onto a series drogue wouldn't be an easy thing to do.

To those who have been there, was it obvious when to use the Jordan?

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robert sailor · 04-02-2014, 07:12

When it is obvious to use the J drogue??

That question will be answered based on ones personal experience,sea miles and rough weather experience. Some rough weather days are a walk in the park for some sailors and the same weather appears to put a less experienced sailor into survival mode.

Suijin · 04-02-2014, 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caracal

No, the point is not one of difference of opinion, but one of understanding the physics involved. A drogue will slow you down, not stop you, and as a result you will go backwards through the water, and have the stern take the brunt of it when going down a steep wave and continously take the brunt of it while you are forced backwards through the water. A parachute anchor from the stem will let you take everything on the nose, whereas a drogue will not. That's the difference.

You also have to take into account that the rudder which will now be in the "front" of the boat as it travels through the water, will put a lot of sideway forces on your boat and attempt to turn it. Try surfing down a wave leading with a big foil/drag.

A wave is not a body of moving water. Drogue or no drogue, if you're stern to and the wave is moving at 8 knots and you're moving at 4 knots, that does NOT mean you're going backwards since the wave is a transfer of energy, not a solid moving mass. Add in that the wave is lifting you, stern first, and the inertia of the boat and simplification that "you're going backwards through the water" breaks down right away. And it's born out by practical experience both with and without a drogue. In fact, you're infinitely more likely to damage your rudder or have control issues going to weather if you lose way and slide backwards down the front face of a wave.

On the subject of the wisdom of going "stern to" and the resulting dynamics of the boat, it really is a question of the design of the boat, the conditions you're in, and the forecast in terms of what you need to do to get out of Dodge.

My first inclination is always to go stern to and run with the weather. I've run down wind bare poles in 50 knots and 7 meter seas with no drogue at all, doing 6-7 knots. A wind vane handled the conditions beautifully and the ride was comfortable and predictable enough to go down below and hang out. Hand steering, which we did through part of the storm at the outset before the wind vane was set was a bit tiring because it was pitch black out and you had to stare at the instruments, but was not difficult. I've been in similar conditions with a drogue out and the steering lashed TDC and been equally comfortable and controlled.

Needless to say, beating to windward with storm sails in similar conditions is an exhausting ride. I would only attempt it if it was the best way to get out of the storm system and the forecast indicated that to be the prudent course of action (eg. hurricane). Heaving to is ultimately the best option in many circumstances, but if you can make 6 knots along your intended course, why not, if you can do it safely and comfortably?

As to the whole pooping issue, that obviously depends to a degree on the boat itself but is a rare event in most offshore boats unless you're in heavily breaking seas. Mine has a relatively small, fast-draining cockpit and high bridge deck specifically designed for safety offshore in this circumstance and so does not present a real stability risk. The boat also has an elliptical shape with canoe stern with sharp entry, providing excellent buoyancy. The point is, unless you have an enormous and/or poorly designed cockpit, it's just not an issue IMO except in extreme survival conditions.

In short, I'll run with the wind unless I encounter specific circumstances that make heaving to more prudent. I'll be more comfortable and put less stress on my vessel which are both important factors in weathering a storm.

pacifica · 04-02-2014, 07:30

Why not use the JSD rather than some other drogue device ;or even instead of heaving-to? Even in relatively mild conditions ,for rest or perhaps repairs.
Then, the decision about when "conditions become worse" is moot.
For example: while hove-to ,how does one determine that the seas are breaking dangerously (meaning it is time to turn tail and stream the JSD), when it only takes one wave to break in the wrong place to do grievous harm? Certainly I have spoken with people who were knocked down and damaged while hove-to, even while judging that conditions were 'too benign to stream the drogue'.
It is not as if the JSD is difficult to retrieve.
Strangely, for us, drogue retrieval was not much more difficult than getting under way from the hove-to position. Even in big remnant seas with 20 K wind.

conachair · 04-02-2014, 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

When it is obvious to use the J drogue??

That question will be answered based on ones personal experience,sea miles and rough weather experience. Some rough weather days are a walk in the park for some sailors and the same weather appears to put a less experienced sailor into survival mode.

And no doubt much to do with the boat. I've never felt much concern around the Atlantic on a long keel heavy steel cutter. Heaving to for an easier time cooking as much as anything. Though never in anything particularly nasty.
But proper breaking waves (as in not just a few feet falling off the crest), now that would be a definite attention grabber.

robert sailor · 04-02-2014, 07:37

How can you say that getting a series drogue up and put away is as easy as sailing away from a hove to mode?? I can be out of a hove to mode and sailing in a minute or two.

RainDog · 04-02-2014, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by pacifica

It is not as if the JSD is difficult to retrieve.

That certainly flies in the face of conventional wisdom.

foolishsailor · 04-02-2014, 08:49

The best time we managed to retrieve it was in 30-40 minutes and this was our third time in as many days doing it. It was tiring, but not complicated or difficult and required several trips to the bow to tie/untie rolling hitches.

If you are shorthanded and already tired this can be an ordeal, however unlike other drag devices since the cones are in line, once the cones start coming out it gets easier as it comes in, especially if you manage your speed as the drag reduces to keep the boat from taking off halfway through a retrieval.