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Old 01-02-2014, 16:41   #91
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Actually I don't think that is an accurate summation of what happened during the 79 fastnet race. Firstly the boats were quite close in shore , with extremely confused seas.

Secondly many were saved by the lifeboats

Few were saved by other boats.

Most of the heavily crewed high tech stuff actually got through the storm. The IOR hull form boats often lightly crewed with very amateur people seemed to get into trouble.

Dave
Never claimed that people were only rescued by other sailboats, yes the motor life boats retrieved a lot, most by helicopter. The point I was trying to make is the JSD is not theory but a very thoroughly tested and proven device and confused large waves either "Near shore" or off shore appear to be very well served by this type of drag device.

A guess would be that no other type of drag device ever went through the extensive tank testing on a multitude of model hull types. It is also great to hear first hand accounts of those who have used them in real world conditions.
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Old 01-02-2014, 16:46   #92
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by cburger View Post
Never claimed that people were only rescued by other sailboats, yes the motor life boats retrieved a lot, most by helicopter. The point I was trying to make is the JSD is not theory but a very thoroughly tested and proven device and confused large waves either "Near shore" or off shore appear to be very well served by this type of drag device.

A guess would be that no other type of drag device ever went through the extensive tank testing on a multitude of model hull types. It is also great to hear first hand accounts of those who have used them in real world conditions.
As I outlined some posts previously, I don't think you need series drogues. You can simply use long warps. The object is to slow the boat ( often only a little) rather then stop it or slow it by huge amounts.

Dave
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Old 01-02-2014, 16:53   #93
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by cburger View Post
Never claimed that people were only rescued by other sailboats, yes the motor life boats retrieved a lot, most by helicopter. The point I was trying to make is the JSD is not theory but a very thoroughly tested and proven device and confused large waves either "Near shore" or off shore appear to be very well served by this type of drag device.

A guess would be that no other type of drag device ever went through the extensive tank testing on a multitude of model hull types. It is also great to hear first hand accounts of those who have used them in real world conditions.
As an aside most people don't realise this was one of the largest ever peacetime rescue operation and over 134 crew were rescued. Most were taken aboard a variety of vessels.

"Craft that assisted the rescue mission

Over 4000 people aided in the rescue efforts. The Royal Navy coordinated efforts to find around 80 vessels and rescue 136 crew members.
Key contributors to the rescue
Royal Navy
HMS Anglesey, Island class patrol vessel
HMS Broadsword, frigate
HMSTY Dasher, yacht
One other unidentified Royal Navy vessel
RMAS Rollicker A502, ocean-going salvage tug
RFA Tidespring, fast fleet tanker of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary
Eight Royal Navy helicopters from RNAS Culdrose and RNAS Prestwick, including Sea Kings, Lynx helicopters and Wessex helicopters
Four Nimrods from RAF St Mawgan in Cornwall
Dutch Navy
HNLMS Overijssel, destroyer
Irish Navy
LÉ Deirdre (P20), Deirdre class offshore patrol vessel
United States Navy
USS Holland (AS-32), submarine tender, Holy Loch, Scotland
Lifeboats
These RNLI lifeboats spent 75 hours at sea in 60-knot (110 km/h) winds
RNLB Guy and Claire Hunter, St Mary's Lifeboat, Isles of Scilly
Baltimore Lifeboat, County Cork
RNLB Mary Stanford, Ballycotton, County Cork
Courtmacsherry, County Cork
Dunmore East, County Waterford
Lifeboat Solomon Browne
RAF
Seven helicopters
Irish Air Corps
Beechcraft Kingair maritime patrol
Alouette helicopter
"
Dave
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Old 01-02-2014, 18:11   #94
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

I wish to discuss the fraying of the cones. The larger opening of the cone is cut on a curve. The very nature of that cut will leave a woven fabric with some of the edge on the straight grain ( subject to fraying) and some on the bias (subject to stretch). Whilst I cannot be 100% certain, commercially produced cones are probably cut on a plotter/cutter which would leave a heat cut edge. Additional heat sealing of the edge would have minimal benefit.
I am planning to make my own JSD using an old dinghy sail, and will be adding an additional line of stitching to both curved edges using a good quality thread, and a long stitch. I do not plan to do a fold over. This would be impossible to do post production.
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Old 01-02-2014, 22:41   #95
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

Great suggestion Ann (Hot-Knife) I have used that technique on all my seams. JSD is the way to go as far as I am concerned. Sailrites response to the faying is a little dis-heartening but I have several of their items in the past with no issues. I am anxious to make the JSD and get out practice and experiment with it.
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Old 01-02-2014, 23:29   #96
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

As Dave mentioned the 79 Fastnet was quite the fiasco. In the end there was a large study done on boat designs and it was determined that many boats with wide beams and low ballast ratios liked to remain inverted for long periods of time. The little Contessa 32 was the bench mark that all the others were measured against. Quite the story.
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Old 02-02-2014, 00:59   #97
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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I wish to discuss the fraying of the cones. The larger opening of the cone is cut on a curve. The very nature of that cut will leave a woven fabric with some of the edge on the straight grain ( subject to fraying) and some on the bias (subject to stretch). Whilst I cannot be 100% certain, commercially produced cones are probably cut on a plotter/cutter which would leave a heat cut edge. Additional heat sealing of the edge would have minimal benefit.
I am planning to make my own JSD using an old dinghy sail, and will be adding an additional line of stitching to both curved edges using a good quality thread, and a long stitch. I do not plan to do a fold over. This would be impossible to do post production.
I notice that, if the pictures are to be believed, Oceanbrake hem theirs. I can't imagine a cut edge being adequate.
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:48   #98
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

Yes there were many problems with the racing boats in the '79 Fastnet. One in particular was the failure of carbon fiber rudders, new at the time. But that is a bit misleading in that the main problem was lack of judgement by the skippers. Many kept sailing (or at least tried to) after being hit by the strong winds and building seas. Others abandoned their boats when they could no longer sail due to rudder or mast problems, and instead went into the flimsy liferafts. There is always a chance of things going really badly, but it is the response that determines the outcome.

Ted Turner won that race, although few remember. When he realized that the conditions were becoming dangerous he shortened sail and hove to, getting underway once the front passed. Good seamanship is what matters in the end.

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Old 02-02-2014, 09:57   #99
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Has anyone had experience with a JSD from ace sail makers in Connecticut? If I remember right they are the only one Jordan authorized to call it a Jordan Series Drogue. Everything else is technically just a series drogue......kind of like all skill saws are circular saws but not all circular saws are skill saws....... I would think they might have some input on how long the cones should last and quality of materials
I contacted Ace because I was curious as to what they used in their drogues. They said most are 2.2 oz but they are now doing some in heavier material with hems.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:18   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As I outlined some posts previously, I don't think you need series drogues. You can simply use long warps. The object is to slow the boat ( often only a little) rather then stop it or slow it by huge amounts.

Dave
I've often wondered how many warps of what length it would take to match a JSD's braking force. And wondered whether it might not be simpler just to carry a bunch more rope.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:22   #101
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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I notice that, if the pictures are to be believed, Oceanbrake hem theirs. I can't imagine a cut edge being adequate.
I would never think of leaving a cut raw edge...seems that is asking for failure.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:03   #102
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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We deployed in excess of 350 feet of 1 " three strand in a loop with both ends tied to the aft cleats, the line was weighted with 4 5 litres water containers ie 20kg. In a effort to keep the loop buried ( from a previous experience )
Thanks for sharing, but the weight of 4 x 5 liter water containers (in the water) is zero. I would attach a spare anchor.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:05   #103
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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I've often wondered how many warps of what length it would take to match a JSD's braking force. And wondered whether it might not be simpler just to carry a bunch more rope.
"A bunch" could present its own problems. Before the concept of the JSD spread, I recall people towing heavy loops in a warp with car tires, small anchors and lengths of chain to keep the line below the trough of the oncoming wave as much as possible.

A warp without a drag/kellet component doesn't (anecdotally) seem to work as well, as I recall from my readings of '60s and '70s passagemakers.

I will make or have made our own JSD, as I feel I understand the concept and believe that it's proven. It also suits our full-keel steel boat with welded "coffee can" bollards. There is less info out there about how it works on a cat, which is why the OP's post was a pleasant and helpful addition to the JSD story.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:05   #104
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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I've often wondered how many warps of what length it would take to match a JSD's braking force. And wondered whether it might not be simpler just to carry a bunch more rope.
I think it would be easier on the catamaran as the loop will be wider and more braking force.

The question is - how to safely place the rope loop into the water at 10-14knots speed, without the sudden "bang" on the cleats?
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Old 02-02-2014, 12:46   #105
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by mikereed100 View Post
@RDW: I let Sailrite know about the issue with the cones when we returned. They replied that they consider the JSD a single-use device, and implied that the frayed cones were not an issue but rather an expected consequence and a small price to pay for the survival of the boat. I disagree, as I feel that a safety device like a drogue or parachute anchor should be capable of multiple deployments, or at minimum of surviving a single deployment. Further, we were not in "survival" conditions, just uncomfortable. Had we been in true survival conditions I feel the drogue would have been reduced to a 340' streamer that would not have provided enough drag to pull the boat through waves. To be fair, in our case it may be a simple matter of sizing (number of cones) rather than the cones being too lightly engineered.
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Wow. That is very discouraging to hear. Kind of makes me re-evaluate my prior opinion of Sailrite.
Are you discouraged because they consider this to be a single use product or because the didn't make it clearer on their website that it was a single use product?

As far as it being a single use product lets look at other storm gear. Liferafts are single use products which seems to be pretty well understood. Nylon anchor rodes are not single use per se, but they are only good for one storm then need to be replaced. I suspect many sailors don't know this. Anchors are multi-use items. Trysails and storm jibs are generally considered to be multi-use. Given the variation here I would say Sailrite probably should have made it clearer on their website. I have no idea what info is in the product literature that comes with their kit.

For those that contend that it should be a multi-use item consider that it uses a nylon leader to absorb shock loads the same as an anchor rode. In storm conditions they will both be repeatedly cycled up to 20-30% or more of breaking strength. One of the effects of this is heat damage to the center core of the line due to friction. Being in the core it is not possible to reasonable inspect for this damage after a storm and the line should be replaced.

For those that propose replacing the nylon leader with Dyneema or some other low stretch line see my previous posts in this thread. Additionally consider the USCG model analysis which indicated that a drogue line would come 20-25' slack most wave cycles. In practice they indicated it came slack occasionally rather than every cycle and to a lesser degree. Even so the line coming slack by 10' then allowing the boat to accelerate before being jerked short by a leader with no stretch seems like a recipe for ripping cleats out of the deck and leaving holes in the hull.
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