Jordan Series Drogue experience

[Mike OReilly]

Very informative thread. I've never been close to a survival storm, but am preparing our boat for the big departure this summer. These discussions of storm tactics always leave me wondering how individual boat characteristics factor into optimal choices.

To make it personal, I have a heavy displacement, full keel, barn door, double ender with a vane and windmill hanging off the stern. We sail with two on board. I've been planning to build a series drogue, but this discussion has me wondering whether a drogue is the best choice for my boat. Does some sort of sea anchor make more sense once we approach survival conditions?

And following up on captain58sailin's questions (which seem to have been dismissed out of hand), if the objective is simply to keep the bow into the wind, why couldn't you trail a drogue off the bow? The objective, it seems to me, is not to stop the boat, but to maintain bow-to-wind.

[Caracal]

And again: Using a drogue from the stem would mean going backwards through the water. How will your rudder fare in that situation? 4 knots? 8 knots?

That is the reason I, for one, dismissed his "suggestion". It was not "out of hand", it was dismissed because I consider it unsafe for the reason I have mentioned.

Laying to a parachute anchor is entirely different. A drogue is meant to slow you down while still making speed through the water.

[robert sailor]

Mike, I think a series drogue will handle a full keel boat no problem, every bit as good as a fin keel however if your sailing in the middle latitudes and stay away from hurricanes its highly unlikely that you would ever use it. Your boat heaves to much better than a fin keeled boat and that alone should look after anything your likely to run into. I have had mine for years so I drag it around with me but I have never used it in over 30,000 miles and probably never will however if you sail in the northern lats or southern ocean then I'd say that it would make a good investment.

[carstenb]

I have no experience with drogues, but if the waves are moving under you at say 8 knots and the boat (with drogue out) is moving at 4 knots, aren't there some rudder issues (if you have a fin keel/spade rudder)?

The water is moving faster than the boat so won't it kick the rudder over into one extreme position or the other?

Extremely interesting thread by the way

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by pacifica

Nowadays many of us are not cruising in deep ,heavy full-keeled sailboats with low rigs that were designed to survive just about anything while hove-to.

Ha ... parallel posts Pacifica. Your scenario is pretty close to what I'm wondering about. It sounds like your series drogue worked great for your fullish keel cutter in survival conditions. Good to know.

Originally Posted by Caracal

And again: Using a drogue from the stem would mean going backwards through the water. How will your rudder fare in that situation? 4 knots? 8 knots?
...
Laying to a parachute anchor is entirely different. A drogue is meant to slow you down while still making speed through the water.

Yes Caracal, I understand the difference. Thanks...

I know how my rudder would behave in 4 knots going backwards. I suspect I know how to manage it with 8 knots. I don't know what would happen in 12 or more. Nor do I know what would happen to my rudder, vane and boomkin if it is hit with a massive wave from the stern. That's why I'm asking people who have experience with drogues and anchors (I assume that is you).

To restate my question: If the objective is simply to keep the bow into the wind, why couldn't you trail a small sea anchor (like a drogue) off the bow? The objective here is not to stop the boat, but to maintain bow-to-wind.

[Caracal]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I have no experience with drogues, but if the waves are moving under you at say 8 knots and the boat (with drogue out) is moving at 4 knots, aren't there some rudder issues (if you have a fin keel/spade rudder)?

The water is moving faster than the boat so won't it kick the rudder over into one extreme position or the other?

Extremely interesting thread by the way

There's quite a bit of difference the speed of the wave movement and the speed of the actual water.

And a sea anchor and a drogue are not the same thing.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Mike, I think a series drogue will handle a full keel boat no problem, every bit as good as a fin keel however if your sailing in the middle latitudes and stay away from hurricanes its highly unlikely that you would ever use it. Your boat heaves to much better than a fin keeled boat and that alone should look after anything your likely to run into. I have had mine for years so I drag it around with me but I have never used it in over 30,000 miles and probably never will however if you sail in the northern lats or southern ocean then I'd say that it would make a good investment.

Fast moving thread...

Thanks Robert. I always appreciate your thoughtful responses. Yes, our boat heaves-to very well. It is always our first choice, and we've never had to do anything else -- yet. Your experience echoes what others have said. We're not going out to prove anything, so I hope to follow in your footsteps and hopefully never have to deal with survival conditions, but I do like to be prepared.

Sounds like a drogue would still work well for us. Thanks! So now the question moves on to whether a full series drogue (with its large storage size and high cost) is wise, or should we look at something compact like a Shark drogue, or even just plan to improvise something with chains.

[pacifica]

My only knowledge of parachute anchors off the bow is from 3 sources:
1 the Pardey's system with a bridle and snatch blocks
2 as recounted in the Drag Devive Database wherein parachutes deployed alone, on monohulls, seemed to often have issues with bad yawing, rolling, and bow attachmemt issues.
3 commercial tuna trollers off the West Coast (who I have spoken with) successfully use parachute sea anchors whenever they dont feel like jogging slowly under power.
No personal experience with bow deployment of sea anchors at all.

I totally agree that in a typical mid latitude voyage the JSD is not needed and is a thousand bucks probably wasted.

[captain58sailin]

pacifica, thank you for sharing your experience, it is enlightening.
Caracal because we have a different opinion about application, does not make me ignorant to the differences between a drogue, sea anchor, parachutes. That is why we have different kinds of vessels and sail in different directions.

[Caracal]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

pacifica, thank you for sharing your experience, it is enlightening.
Caracal because we have a different opinion about application, does not make me ignorant to the differences between a drogue, sea anchor, parachutes. That is why we have different kinds of vessels and sail in different directions.

No, the point is not one of difference of opinion, but one of understanding the physics involved. A drogue will slow you down, not stop you, and as a result you will go backwards through the water, and have the stern take the brunt of it when going down a steep wave and continously take the brunt of it while you are forced backwards through the water. A parachute anchor from the stem will let you take everything on the nose, whereas a drogue will not. That's the difference.

You also have to take into account that the rudder which will now be in the "front" of the boat as it travels through the water, will put a lot of sideway forces on your boat and attempt to turn it. Try surfing down a wave leading with a big foil/drag.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by pacifica

I totally agree that in a typical mid latitude voyage the JSD is not needed and is a thousand bucks probably wasted.

Probably 100% correct until you're not, and then that $1000 seems like a damn good deal when you're staring down the face of a big ass angry wave.

I agree with you that you most likely you will never need it but also the 99+% of people that buy a life raft will never need one but they buy them just in case. I'd rather find another place to save money then skimping on emergency equipment.

At least that's the way I look at it. To each their own though

[Caracal]

I forgot to mention that the idea that you know how your boat acts going backwards at 4 knots and 8 knots is not true, if you're counting going in reverse with the engine. That is like being pulled from the rear, not sliding down waves. There's a world of difference.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Caracal

There's quite a bit of difference the speed of the wave movement and the speed of the actual water.

And a sea anchor and a drogue are not the same thing.

I'm aware of the difference between a drogue and sea anchor. and I also realize that wave action does NOTY mean the water is necessarily moving at say 8 knots.

Let me rephrase:

If the water is moving faster than the boat (with the drogue delayed) will that not induce some rudder issues?

[Caracal]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I'm aware of the difference between a drogue and sea anchor. and I also realize that wave action does NOTY mean the water is necessarily moving at say 8 knots.

No, you still don't seem to understand it:

Originally Posted by carstenb

If the water is moving faster than the boat (with the drogue delayed) will that not induce some rudder issues?

If the water is moving faster than the boat, the drogue will be travelling that same speed, minus the drag of the boat. You use the water to slow down against the wind (or practically stop in the case of a sea anchor).

You use the body of water and a drogue or sea anchor , specifically because it does not move (much) compared to the wind and wave action.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

To restate my question: If the objective is simply to keep the bow into the wind, why couldn't you trail a small sea anchor (like a drogue) off the bow? The objective here is not to stop the boat, but to maintain bow-to-wind.

A drogue won't keep your bow to the wind unless it is big enough to be a parachute anchor. In which case, it would be a parachute anchor and not a drogue.

For most boats, a drogue off the bow will cause the bow to fall off the wind and sail around on it. You will have potential for waves to do a lot of damage and it would be uncomfortable.

Mark