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Old 01-03-2016, 14:21   #166
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by wsmurdoch View Post
Is there a right way, a wrong way, or does the layout of the pattern on the fabric not really matter at all?
Certainly affects trousers, dresses & sails...

I imagine it might affect how the mouth of the cone behaves in the flow of water?
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:31   #167
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

Another story of a JSD deployment can be found on Morgan's Cloud website.
https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/06...ue-deployment/
Survival conditions south of NZ, and the JSD brought the situation under control. Most interesting is that by the time the storm abated, the bridle was near to failure due to deformation of the thimbles. The forces must have been enormous, and presumably would have been worse with a dyneema rode.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:38   #168
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by Sun and Moon View Post
Another story of a JSD deployment can be found on Morgan's Cloud website.
https://www.morganscloud.com/2013/06...ue-deployment/
Survival conditions south of NZ, and the JSD brought the situation under control. Most interesting is that by the time the storm abated, the bridle was near to failure due to deformation of the thimbles. The forces must have been enormous, and presumably would have been worse with a dyneema rode.
Aaah...thanks for posting a link behind a pay wall. Pretty unfair.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:58   #169
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Ace Sailmakers has been using 5.4 oz Dacron , with a 3/4" hem wide end of cone, to manufacture the Jordan Series Drogue®.

Don was a great friend, met with him many times. Never heard him say drogue good for one use. In fact, he considered it as a piece of equipment that has to be absolutely reliable. Over time, we have increased fabric weight and quality to achieve this.

Jordan series Drogue ® is a registered trademark describing the series drogue invented by Don Jordan as designed and built by Ace Sailmakers, East Lyme, CT.


Thank you
Dave Pelissier
Ace Sailmakers
East Lyme CT 06333
I find it interesting that Don Jordan, gave his research and expertise freely to anyone who cared to use it. As far as I can tell, there was no attempt to restrict the use of "Jordan series drogue" or register any trademark during his lifetime. You applied for a trademark less than three months after his death. Care to comment?
correction: just over 3 months after his death.
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Old 02-03-2016, 13:09   #170
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Aaah...thanks for posting a link behind a pay wall. Pretty unfair.
I don't pay them anything. I think I signed up as a free member once, so maybe I'm still logged in. I can read the whole article. Here's the link for a free subscription:
https://www.morganscloud.com/free-subscription/

I'll copy what the cruiser said. If you want to see Morgan's Cloud's analysis and commentary you can create an account and log in. They've got photos of the damaged thimbles, too.




After a short stay at Port Pegasus, Stewart Island, New Zealand, we headed out for what was supposed to be an overnight trip to Fjordland [the southernmost part of the west coast of the south island of New Zealand]. We departed around midday and motor-sailed in light winds down the coast. There were five people on board (three adults—two men, one woman—and two boys five and three years old).

It was close to dark when we rounded the cape [the southwest corner of Stewart Island] and the wind was strengthening from the NW. As the night wore on the wind continued to strengthen and the seas were building. By the morning the wind had increased to 30 knots gusting to 40 from the NW and the seas were continuing to build. With only about 30 nm to go, the decision was made to heave-to as we were now experiencing gusts of up to 50 knots.

But our drift rate was high and taking us towards Solander Island, so we decided to turn and run before the wind to a position south of Stewart Island, which would allow sufficient sea room to deploy the series drogue.


Over the next 4 hours the wind speed peaked at 80 knots with the seas reaching in excess of 12 meters (40-feet). During this time we experienced two knockdowns. The first being the most severe. These resulted in damage to the bimini, davits and solar panels. The mainsail was ripped from the boom bag and spilled out over the cabin top. A considerable amount of water flooded into the boat after the companionway hatch was forced open.

We had just secured the sail and jettisoned the stainless steel bimini frame, which was twisted and broken, posing a risk of serious injury, when we were knocked down for the second time.


Soon after we had reached a position far enough south, which we considered a safe distance from land, we deployed the SDDJ. We had never set the drogue before, but we installed and deployed it following the method outlined on your website. It went out without a hitch and finally the boat sat quiet and comfortable on an angry ocean.

From this point on we did not get water over the decks. Wet and exhausted, we finally felt safe enough to lie down and sleep.

As night approached our drift rate was 0.6 kts. We were still sitting nicely to the drogue and all on board slept reasonably well. In the morning we found ourselves about 6 nm south west of Stewart Island. We noted that we had been pulled against the wind by the current. The wind and sea had calmed somewhat and we headed for the safety of Port Pegasus, the same anchorage we had left two days before.


We were told soon after that another boat had been out there too and had not fared so well. Eight people on board had lost their lives. We counted our lucky stars and looked upon the SDDJ as a life saver.


Later, an inspection of the drogue showed that the stainless steel thimbles were crushed and wouldn’t have lasted much longer.


At first I retrieved the drogue hand over hand, timing the swell, pull and hold, pull and hold. That lasted for about five minutes.

We then started using the engine to back up on the drogue, the helmsman reversing for the pull and neutral for the hold. This worked well, although when we finished I lay exhausted for what seemed like an eternity.

I do not know how long it took to retrieve but I guess it would not have been more than one hour. This was done in about 15 to 20 knots of wind and about 3 meters (10 ft) of SW swell. Instructions to the helmsman were yelled and we were still in our weather gear">foul weather gear. Our instruments were not working at this time so I’m making some guesses here.


We are very concerned about the thimbles and have looked into using solid SS thimbles.

The splicing was done by me. Rope size is 18 mm (7/16″) double braid and 18 mm (7/16″) thimbles. The bridle had thimbles at both ends and the main line of the drogue had a thimble (so 5 in total). All suffered damage and will have to be replaced.

One thing I did not expect was the way that we laid to the drogue. I estimated 45 degrees to port and this was verified by the wear to the toe rail on the starboard side and the thimble on the starboard side bridle to leader connection which sustained the most damage. As a wave approached, the boat would start to square up until we were in line with the drogue and once past we would lay at around 45 degrees again. I think this is normal? So soft connections would be better suited here. The problem is that it does not allow a permanent bridle that can be used for our other drogue, a Seabrake, but that would be a small price to pay for eliminating the problem with the thimbles.
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Old 02-03-2016, 13:32   #171
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

A gripping account! After much research we choose a series drogue for our Mason 44 around the Atlantic trip. The logic was we could always cope with moderately heavy weather by running off or heaving to but when it got to survival conditions only the series drogue made any sense.

Additionally, I installed closed fair leads on both corners of the transom for the bridle.

Fortunately we never got close to deployment.
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Old 03-03-2016, 14:36   #172
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by Geoff54 View Post
I find it interesting that Don Jordan, gave his research and expertise freely to anyone who cared to use it. As far as I can tell, there was no attempt to restrict the use of "Jordan series drogue" or register any trademark during his lifetime. You applied for a trademark less than three months after his death. Care to comment?
correction: just over 3 months after his death.
Hear, hear !! Ace Sailmakers actions would not have have been endorsed by Don Jordan, who actively encouraged others such as myself (OceanBrake) to build his design. Don wanted to see the series drogue used widely and not for a single builder to Shanghai and limit for their selfish commercial gain. Even Don's own website jordanseriesdrogue.com appears to have been hijacked, despite a claim by Ace that Don's family wished it "to be maintained indefinitely for the benefit of the sailing community". Ace have now embarked on a campaign of smear and defamatory comments against other series drogue builders, clearly not prepared to compete on quality and price. Despite Geoff54's request for comment, I'm not holding my breath for a response from Ace justifying their actions !
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:47   #173
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by Geoff54 View Post
I find it interesting that Don Jordan, gave his research and expertise freely to anyone who cared to use it. As far as I can tell, there was no attempt to restrict the use of "Jordan series drogue" or register any trademark during his lifetime. You applied for a trademark less than three months after his death. Care to comment?
correction: just over 3 months after his death.
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Originally Posted by englishseadog View Post
Hear, hear !! Ace Sailmakers actions would not have have been endorsed by Don Jordan, who actively encouraged others such as myself (OceanBrake) to build his design. Don wanted to see the series drogue used widely and not for a single builder to Shanghai and limit for their selfish commercial gain. Even Don's own website jordanseriesdrogue.com appears to have been hijacked, despite a claim by Ace that Don's family wished it "to be maintained indefinitely for the benefit of the sailing community". Ace have now embarked on a campaign of smear and defamatory comments against other series drogue builders, clearly not prepared to compete on quality and price. Despite Geoff54's request for comment, I'm not holding my breath for a response from Ace justifying their actions !
Who knows what arangement he had with Ace Sailmakers besides him and them. Their actions are called Capitalism and it is how our country runs. The only thing being restricted is the word Jordan. Anybody can make and sell a series drogue, they are just the only ones allowed to use the name "Jordan" Series drogue. Nobody knows if part of him working with Ace was that after he died they got to trade mark the name or that they just did it on their own, OR if his family gave them permission with the caveat that they had to keep the website up and running. Who really cares? If you can make a better more durable series drogue then make it and market it better then Ace does. Again that is how Capitalism works. Improve the mouse trap slap your name on it and market the hell out of it. This is no different than comparing between CVS brand acetaminophen and Tylenol. It's all the same stuff just one has a Trade marked brand name and the other has a generic. Or should everyone get to use Tylenol's name on their product?
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Old 14-03-2016, 18:10   #174
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Who knows what arangement he had with Ace Sailmakers besides him and them. Their actions are called Capitalism and it is how our country runs. The only thing being restricted is the word Jordan. Anybody can make and sell a series drogue, they are just the only ones allowed to use the name "Jordan" Series drogue. Again that is how Capitalism works. Improve the mouse trap slap your name on it and market the hell out of it.

So what you are saying is that Capitalism is a synonym for Gaming the System. From all outward appearances Ace is trying to reap the benefits of somebody else's research and reputation, somebody who seems to have specifically left his work in the public domain. All I've heard is Ace's claim to the trademark, not any patents. They didn't build a better anything, they just grabbed his name for a marketing advantage. If they had been a key player in publicizing the Jordan Series Drogue I could see them having some reasonable claim to the name but it seems that their only contribution is being the first to the Trademark and Patent office.

If Jordan or his estate sold or licensed the use of his name to Ace then they have standing, but such a transfer should be in the public record. From outward appearances they are avoiding release of this info. Time will tell.

The US Parks Service is going thru this at Yosemite right now, the last concessionaire trademarked a lot of the place names there even though the names predate that concessionaire by decades. That law case may help clarify the legal issues here, the Park Service has deep enough pockets to see this fully thru the Trademark office and the court system.


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Old 15-03-2016, 10:24   #175
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
So what you are saying is that Capitalism is a synonym for Gaming the System. From all outward appearances Ace is trying to reap the benefits of somebody else's research and reputation, somebody who seems to have specifically left his work in the public domain. All I've heard is Ace's claim to the trademark, not any patents. They didn't build a better anything, they just grabbed his name for a marketing advantage. If they had been a key player in publicizing the Jordan Series Drogue I could see them having some reasonable claim to the name but it seems that their only contribution is being the first to the Trademark and Patent office.

If Jordan or his estate sold or licensed the use of his name to Ace then they have standing, but such a transfer should be in the public record. From outward appearances they are avoiding release of this info. Time will tell.

The US Parks Service is going thru this at Yosemite right now, the last concessionaire trademarked a lot of the place names there even though the names predate that concessionaire by decades. That law case may help clarify the legal issues here, the Park Service has deep enough pockets to see this fully thru the Trademark office and the court system.


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Yep you're right everything and every idea should be made available to everyone and no one should ever be able to profit off any of them.

Or if you actually read through jordanseriesdrogue.com you would see there is a letter written by Don Jordan about how Ace sailmakers was the only company to take him in and help develop the drogue for less then most makers were selling them for. So it looks like there was a strong relationship between ace and Don before he died as he wrote the letter at 89 years old and states they've been working together for 15 years.

Here's a small quote from the letter

" If it weren't for the good work of Dave and his company, I do not think that the drogue would have survived and prospered"

also not to mention (but I will anyways) that all the info about the drogue is still published free of charge on the website. Any person with half a brain can read through the website and figure out how to correctly and safely make their own series drogue. Or if you would like you can purchase a Jordan series drogue with the company that produced and sold it with Don Jordan knowing that it was made with his guidance, specifications and demand for quality.

So please explain to me how providing the details about how its made free of charge but reserving the right to the name Jordan is gaming the system????


Lastly lets say Ace didn't TM the name. Some other company would at some point do the exact same thing and market their series drogue. From a strictly quality control stand point Ace would be crazy not to TM it and then let someone else enter a potentially sub par product into the market with Jordans name attached, tarnishing his name and reputation.


Jordan Series Drogue - About the Builder, Dave Pelissier of ACE Sailmakers
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Old 15-03-2016, 20:56   #176
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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Yep you're right everything and every idea should be made available to everyone and no one should ever be able to profit off any of them.
If you actually read and comprehended my post you would understand that was neither what I said nor meant. Unless maybe you are intentionally mis-stating my arguments and conclusions in an attempt discredit them without directly addressing their merits.

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Originally Posted by ontherocks83 View Post
Or if you actually read through jordanseriesdrogue.com you would see there is a letter written by Don Jordan about how Ace sailmakers was the only company to take him in and help develop the drogue for less then most makers were selling them for. So it looks like there was a strong relationship between ace and Don before he died as he wrote the letter at 89 years old and states they've been working together for 15 years.
I would have read the letter if I'd known about it. If is an accurate reproduction of Jordan's sentiments then it would be support for Ace getting some sort of trademark, the particulars would be subject to Trademark office rules. The phrase as been in common un-trademarked use for some time so that would argue against them getting the trademark, look at what happened with the name Aspirin which originally was under trademark.

But, going back, my last post was in response to your Post #173 in which
1] you disavowed any knowledge of what understandings Jordan and Ace had reached,
2] made no mention in fact of any long term relationship,
3] seemed to make the argument that they had the right to Trademark Jordan's name in this use because we are a capitalist country and they built a better mouse trap (except they didn't).

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. . . So please explain to me how providing the details about how its made free of charge but reserving the right to the name Jordan is gaming the system????
You are again mis-stating my argument as a rhetorical device. I made no mention of Ace's publishing Jordan's research. Your statement above attempts to put words in my mouth and paint me as opposed to a public good, which I am not. I assume that Ace is continuing to publish the results of Jordan's research as a public service, which is a good PR move on their part but not really gaming the system.

What is gaming the system is trademarking a name they probably don't have a good claim to. Not as tenuous as I first understood but still tenuous. It is tenuous because the name was in the public domain for a significant period prior to the Trademark and prior to Ace's involvement and because involves a deceased person and they are reaping a benefit from his reputation. Also I expect some of Ace's competitors used the "Jordan Series Drogue" moniker prior to the trademark being registered. Any competitors that want to challenge the trademark would need deep pockets to pursue the necessary legal action regardless of how poor Ace's position is. And the market for series drogue do not appear to be large enough to support such a fight. Just the threat of legal action is enough to win regardless of the merits of the argument. In the end Ace wins primarily because they were the first thru the door, not because of any great contribution.

Quote:
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Lastly lets say Ace didn't TM the name. Some other company would at some point do the exact same thing and market their series drogue.
You are making my point for me, it's the first to the door that got the trademark not the best, or the originator. And actually the other companies are marketing their own series drogue.

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From a strictly quality control stand point Ace would be crazy not to TM it and then let someone else enter a potentially sub par product into the market with Jordans name attached, tarnishing his name and reputation. . . .
The trademark has nothing to do with Ace's quality control, it's a marketing issue. Ace is not doing this to protect Jordan, they did this for their own economic benefit, they may or may not feel there is an added benefit in "protecting' Jordan. You heavily hint that anyone else making series drogues is not making them as well as but unless that info on this is buried back in the earlier reaches of this thread, that's just insinuation.

Finally, how would you feel if I trademarked "On the Rocks" and/or "On the Rocks Sailing". Doing so would cost $225-325 and would allow me to contest your use of the phrase as your username in a public forum (such as this one). You could fight that but to do so would probably cost more than it's worth to you, I don't really know.

In summary Ace has tenuous justification to hold this trademark which give them a marketing advantage, but being the first to do so gives them a legal process advantage that has nothing to do with the underlying legal merits.
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Old 15-03-2016, 21:37   #177
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

Adelie, thanks for the clear analysis and summation. It is very helpful.
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Old 15-03-2016, 23:15   #178
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

This quote from Wikipedia;
Trademark law is designed to fulfill the public policy objective of consumer protection, by preventing the public from being misled as to the origin or quality of a product or service. By identifying the commercial source of products and services, trademarks facilitate identification of products and services which meet the expectations of consumers as to quality and other characteristics.

Trademarks may also serve as an incentive for manufacturers, providers or suppliers to consistently provide quality products or services to maintain their business reputation. Furthermore, if a trademark owner does not maintain quality control and adequate supervision in relation to the manufacture and provision of products or services supplied by a licensee, such "naked licensing" will eventually adversely affect the owner's rights in the trademark.
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Old 16-03-2016, 00:02   #179
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

I would like to ask a question of those that have used and recovered a Drogue (Jordan Series, Ace, Sailrite, homemade, stolen or found) Would it ease recovery if a floating trip line (even with floats attached to ensure it floats clear of the drogue) were attached to the far end of the drogue, and the drogue then hauled from the trip line pulling the cones in backwards and therefore reducing the water weight against the cones? Has anyone tried it? Did it work? Thanks.
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Old 16-03-2016, 00:33   #180
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Re: Jordan Series Drogue experience

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I would like to ask a question of those that have used and recovered a Drogue (Jordan Series, Ace, Sailrite, homemade, stolen or found) Would it ease recovery if a floating trip line (even with floats attached to ensure it floats clear of the drogue) were attached to the far end of the drogue, and the drogue then hauled from the trip line pulling the cones in backwards and therefore reducing the water weight against the cones? Has anyone tried it? Did it work? Thanks.
Hi, there, Chris,

Yes, Evans Starzinger has done this and written about it here on CF. Maybe someone better at it than I can tell you how to find it. You could search through this thread, it might have been here, or in another one, but it will be one of Evans' posts. Knowledgeable chap, and keen to investigate *stuff*.

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