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Old 20-08-2012, 20:30   #16
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Re: Jib downhaul & stowage?

In one of my old books (maybe Eric Hiscock or Donald Street) there is a photo of jib hanks that have an extra hole cast into them just for the purpose of a downhaul. It is an old an effective methode, But with roller furling I would not use them on a jib. I would use them on a staysail because I dont think a staysail should be on a roller furler. I want a staysail removable (and the stay) so that all of the time you are day sailing you dont have to tack around the inner forestay. You normally only need the staysail for a passage. Not for short hops or daysails. On a sloop rig ,roller furling is good for most sailing but , not what I would prefer for long offshore passages. Just my opinion______Grant.
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Old 20-08-2012, 21:09   #17
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Re: Jib downhaul & stowage?

I've used a jib downhaul for 40+ years. Pretty handy when single handing. I tie a small line to the jib halyard down to a swivel block back to the cockpit on a jamb cleat. Also is a lifesavor when someone let's the halyard lose and goes to the mast head. I also have one on the main halyard. Just my way of preventing climbing the mast at sea..Michael..
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Old 20-08-2012, 22:20   #18
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Re: Jib downhaul & stowage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
People look at me weird when I say this, but I'll probably ditch my furler for a hanked on yankee. I like them more for a variety of reasons (flexibility, simplicity, less "stuff", etc).

My old hanked on jib on a previous boat had a downhaul which was very handy. Invariably it would get a little in the drink, but if you kept the clew taught on your jib lines, the tension from tack to clew would be sufficient to keep it from going into the drink entirely.

If you time it just right, you can downhaul in the irons (just pinch a bit) and it comes down on deck nicely. I kept some bungee cords up on the life lines and would tackle the cloth, securing it with those until I could properly fold / roll it and jam it down the forward hatch.
Nope, when the next boat comes around it will be sans roller furler either at purchase or shortly thereafter.
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Old 20-08-2012, 22:58   #19
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Re: Jib downhaul & stowage?

We just made an offer on our new to us boat ! a staysail ketch. It has My first roller furler! but the first thing I will do is put downhauls on both the staysail and the main! I don't know yet if Im gonna even like the roller furler! its new to me so it's a unknown !! Im gonna have to learn somthing New ! Darn I hope there are as easy to use as most of you folks say they are !! I know with deck room we have, I will have no problem sailing with the main, staysail and mizzen ! But that 130 genny might be fun!!LOL O well I hope an Old Dog Can learn something new !!!
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Old 21-08-2012, 03:00   #20
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

Hey! Bobconnie! Congratulations. Look forward to hearing more about it.
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Old 21-08-2012, 06:18   #21
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Tom Rishel.
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Old 21-08-2012, 18:37   #22
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

Here's my alternative to the Gerr downhaul concept:
It's a bit like the Dutchman mainsail system.

Effectively it flakes the sail, if the eyelets are put in the right places, relative to the tack and the hanks.

Naturally the sheet immobilises the clew, so the entire sail is kept well under control until have the opportunity to bag it.

The downhaul line runs through the eyelets, lying alternately on opposite sides of the sail between them.

Works better than other layouts, IMO, on bigger sails ... say up to a #2 genoa.


The eyelets 2 & 3 should be positioned so that, as the sail is collected on the foredeck, each eyelet is slightly closer to the standup block "B" than the previous one, so the line runs more or less straight between A and B once the foot of the sail is down.

The downhaul can be dead-ended at the top eyelet.
Marking the eyelet locations, particularly for the first sail you apply it to, requires gathering the sail by simulating the action of the downhaul line.
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Old 21-08-2012, 19:51   #23
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

Any of you folks who want to get rid of their jib furling system just let me know. I've got a couple of jibs I'll trade you, complete with hanks.
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Old 21-08-2012, 21:00   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup
Here's my alternative to the Gerr downhaul concept:
It's a bit like the Dutchman mainsail system.

Effectively it flakes the sail, if the eyelets are put in the right places, relative to the tack and the hanks.

Naturally the sheet immobilises the clew, so the entire sail is kept well under control until have the opportunity to bag it.

The downhaul line runs through the eyelets, lying alternately on opposite sides of the sail between them.

Works better than other layouts, IMO, on bigger sails ... say up to a #2 genoa.

The eyelets 2 & 3 should be positioned so that, as the sail is collected on the foredeck, each eyelet is slightly closer to the standup block "B" than the previous one, so the line runs more or less straight between A and B once the foot of the sail is down.

The downhaul can be dead-ended at the top eyelet.
Marking the eyelet locations, particularly for the first sail you apply it to, requires gathering the sail by simulating the action of the downhaul line.
+1
This looks good - i will give it a go.
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Old 22-08-2012, 03:58   #25
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

It's a good idea with any Dutchman style setup to 'train' the sail, by tidying up the flaking the first while.

It's important to make sure the first panel (between the head and the top hank) flips the right way. Luckily, dead-ending the line (perhaps with a toggle, otherwise a stopper knot's OK) at the top eyelet applies a small tipping moment which means it naturally tends to get started in the right direction. (Of course it always ends in the right direction, because the line ends up running straight between the eyelets, but what you want is one definite, early fold up top, rather than a concertina crumple).

When you 'train' it, you can progressively apply more 'ironing', between the palms of your hands, as the training period progresses and the natural fold positions become unambiguously apparent, to predispose the 'flakes' to hinge from the right place, but don't overdo it, especially in the vicinity of any seams!

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Old 22-08-2012, 22:10   #26
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

Andrew (Troup) et al,
I like your "draw cord" concept for a hanked on jib - do you have any experience or comment on how well it works when deploying a storm jib, ie will it keep it secure on deck until it can be released as the halyard is pulled up?
  1. (I'm happy to roller furl my jib but still have to venture to the bow to untie and deploy the storm jib even if I have set the inner forestay and hanked it on previously;
  2. What is it that you guys don't like about roller furling a jibs?)
Cheers,
Andrew (G)
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Old 23-08-2012, 00:55   #27
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew G View Post
Andrew (Troup) et al,

I like your "draw cord" concept for a hanked on jib - do you have any experience or comment on how well it works when deploying a storm jib, ie will it keep it secure on deck until it can be released as the halyard is pulled up?
  1. (I'm happy to roller furl my jib but still have to venture to the bow to untie and deploy the storm jib even if I have set the inner forestay and hanked it on previously;
  2. What is it that you guys don't like about roller furling a jibs?)
Cheers,
Andrew (G)
I'm guessing you're talking about what I would call a storm staysail?
(I think of a storm jib as setting on the headstay, ie the one which attaches to the stemhead)

Yes, provided it's done carefully (both the installation and the prep)

I'd be a little less sanguine about a true storm jib situation where it's likely to see a lot more green water - although even there it should survive OK as long as you're not sailing too long with it on deck.

I haven't got experience of using this setup with storm canvas, but would expect it to work well, because heavy Dacron hinges in a more repeatable way than lighter stuff.

As for what some people dislike about roller jibs, here's my own list of grievances (many of which apply with rather more force when sailing short or singlehanded)

a) Changing sails offshore is difficult and potentially dangerous (unless you install slugs rather than a boltrope). If you don't change sails, you get quite compromised windward ability in strong winds
b) Problems with inability to roll or unroll are a showstopper. (almost -- in theory you can use the time-honoured "Sailing in circles" as a get-out-of-gaol manoeuvre, but good luck with that in a true storm)
c) The loads from a roller headfoil to the stay are applied more locally, and inertial loads (because of the weight of the headfoil) are higher, which can lead to stay breakage, usually near the terminals.
d) Extra weight and windage in the worst possible place for both. (Forward and up high). Even at anchor, this is not always desirable; when trying to make headway in heavy air and steep seas, it can be quite a penalty.
e) For reliability on long arduous passages, it pays to oversize the gear. This makes c) and d) more problematic
f) It's a more sophisticated system, and as such the installation / design needs to be done with lots of care, experience and attention to detail if it is to be reliable for the long haul.If not, there are several (avoidable) potential problem areas with things like halyard wraps, rigging screws loosening undetected, etc etc.
g) On many boats it's not possible to furl without using a winch. This makes it hard to tell when something is wrong.
h) Ultra violet degradation to the sail, for boats which lie idle for long periods. Protection is expensive, not very durable, and not particularly helpful to performance.
i) The butt joints in the extrusion are crucial. Twisting loads are applied from one end only, and pass through every joint. If adjacent sections develop significant free play, the boltrope and/or tape will quickly become damaged to the point where the sail can only be lowered with the aid of a bosun's chair and a knife.
j) The swivel bearings are a bit of a worry, especially when off the beaten track for years at a time. Some expedition yachts are going to a simpler headfoil where the halyard returns down the same extrusion, eliminating the need for loaded swivels top and bottom. With modern high strength, low stretch lines in small diameters this makes a lot of sense to me.

Having said all these things, my next boat will have a roller foil on the headstay (but not the inner forestay). The advantages are considerable, and many of the disadvantages can be addressed. I'll almost certainly opt for the simplified version. And will certainly fit slugs, not boltropes. That way, I can always revert to a fixed, twin groove headfoil if all else fails.
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Old 23-08-2012, 01:52   #28
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

bobconnie: how are you planning on rigging the main down-haul?

regards,
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Old 23-08-2012, 02:05   #29
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

Andrew,
Thanks, a comprehensive reply and I mostly agree. I'll give some thought to how I can adopt the "draw cord" approach to setting my staysail.

I've added comments in { }.

Andrew G


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I'm guessing you're talking about what I would call a storm staysail?
{yep, hanked on to a temporary inner forestay - I currently leave it hanked on but in a bag on deck - and hence have to go up to the bow when I'd rather not. I have sailed Melb. to Lizard Island and Melb. to Geraldton via Darwin all single handed plus more with others over the last 60 years}
(I think of a storm jib as setting on the headstay, ie the one which attaches to the stemhead)

Yes, provided it's done carefully (both the installation and the prep)

I'd be a little less sanguine about a true storm jib situation where it's likely to see a lot more green water - although even there it should survive OK as long as you're not sailing too long with it on deck. {I tend to only rig it when I suspect I may need it but then can get caught out and having to rely on a heavily rolled jib rather than a properly setting staysail}

I haven't got experience of using this setup with storm canvas, but would expect it to work well, because heavy Dacron hinges in a more repeatable way than lighter stuff.
{at this stage I'm more worried about raising it so I will be determining the folds - if only it will stay there for a day or so until needed}

As for what some people dislike about roller jibs, here's my own list of grievances (many of which apply with rather more force when sailing short or singlehanded) {as I do}

a) Changing sails offshore is difficult and potentially dangerous (unless you install slugs rather than a boltrope). If you don't change sails, you get quite compromised windward ability in strong winds {agree - I have sailed on my No 2 jib for ages but could change up if I wasn't so lazy - tend to turn on the engine in light airs}
b) Problems with inability to roll or unroll are a showstopper. (almost -- in theory you can use the time-honoured "Sailing in circles" as a get-out-of-gaol manoeuvre, but good luck with that in a true storm) {agree! I have come close but never succumbed - I'm now adept at dismantling it whilst dipping the bow at night}
c) The loads from a roller headfoil to the stay are applied more locally, and inertial loads (because of the weight of the headfoil) are higher, which can lead to stay breakage, usually near the terminals. {OK on Brut as everything is over-sized and by now well tested}
d) Extra weight and windage in the worst possible place for both. (Forward and up high). Even at anchor, this is not always desirable; when trying to make headway in heavy air and steep seas, it can be quite a penalty. {agree - have motor-sailed for days making 2 knts in Indian Ocean swells}
e) For reliability on long arduous passages, it pays to oversize the gear. This makes c) and d) more problematic {agree}
f) It's a more sophisticated system, and as such the installation / design needs to be done with lots of care, experience and attention to detail if it is to be reliable for the long haul.If not, there are several (avoidable) potential problem areas with things like halyard wraps, rigging screws loosening undetected, etc etc. {but once designed out and tested cease to be a problem??}
g) On many boats it's not possible to furl without using a winch. This makes it hard to tell when something is wrong. {agree - I never use a winch}
h) Ultra violet degradation to the sail, for boats which lie idle for long periods. Protection is expensive, not very durable, and not particularly helpful to performance. {every 5 or so years I have my UV strip checked/replaced}
i) The butt joints in the extrusion are crucial. Twisting loads are applied from one end only, and pass through every joint. If adjacent sections develop significant free play, the boltrope and/or tape will quickly become damaged to the point where the sail can only be lowered with the aid of a bosun's chair and a knife. {agree}
j) The swivel bearings are a bit of a worry, especially when off the beaten track for years at a time. Some expedition yachts are going to a simpler headfoil where the halyard returns down the same extrusion, eliminating the need for loaded swivels top and bottom. With modern high strength, low stretch lines in small diameters this makes a lot of sense to me. {agree}

Having said all these things, my next boat will have a roller foil on the headstay (but not the inner forestay) {makes sense}. The advantages are considerable, and many of the disadvantages can be addressed {agree to both}. I'll almost certainly opt for the simplified version. And will certainly fit slugs, not boltropes {I'm not sure about the slugs??}. That way, I can always revert to a fixed, twin groove headfoil if all else fails. {Brut has a twin grove foil - its just that they both rotate when you pull the line}
{Thanks Andrew - as I said a comprehensive response and I'm going to look at a "draw cord" for my staysail, Cheers, Andrew G}
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Old 23-08-2012, 02:36   #30
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Re: Jib Downhaul & Stowage ?

I lapsed into wordiness in my last post: the short answer is that a furler tends to provide more in the way of unpleasant surprises.

These are particularly inconvenient when alone.

I came across the following representative account, (one of many diverse situations) when I was looking through info I'd filed on such surprises:

"I didn't have any major disasters, if you don't count the fact that at the height of the storm, the Solent, which was wound up on the roller, began to unroll and balloon upwards. The sail could only unroll at the top, while at the bottom, where the sheets are attached, there was the opposite effect, and it just pulled itself tighter. Without immediate action, there was the risk of everything breaking. At a certain point, there would be a greater area of sail out than is possible in 70 knots of wind, and you risk losing the mast with all the strain and shocks. So I had to head off, running free, with the wind behind me, then roll up, unroll and roll up again several times in a row, so that the tension was balanced and it could be wound up evenly. At that point in time, I was heading off towards Iceland with a 70-knot tailwind."
(Bernard Stamm)

I dislike the idea that something as crucial to the rig's integrity as the forestay is not able to be inspected regularly. The foil I'm thinking of using (Alado) might alleviate this. If I can come up with a way of setting it up right, I should at least be able to inspect the terminals.

If you're using swages on the forestay, it's a good idea to buy swages with extra long terminals to move the hinge point further from where the load is applied. This is more important at the top than at the bottom (the cyclic inertial loads from pitching can induce fatigue failures at the point where the wire enters the swage)
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