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Old 10-04-2014, 16:26   #91
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Seems to me both Steve's and Lojanica's ideas are classic brainstorming.



So far out of left field that they jolt thinking entirely off the rails.



Remember how ATM machines got invented: a UK bank was brainstorming ways they might remove the barriers between the bank's customers and their money. Someone said "Why don't we knock a hole in the wall and let them help themselves"



In a culture of put-downs and sneering, that suggestion would never be made, and if it was, certainly no-one would say "Well, hang on just a minute ...."



One of the great conventions of fruitful brainstorming is that people who have seen how the process can work will run with aspects of each idea looking for further new angles, and ways the idea can be made workable, and move ahead of established methods.



It's helpful, indeed necessary for best results, if this process is not clogged up and negative emotions brought into play by finding fault with deficiencies, at least until the supply of new ideas dries up.



I've not seen this happen much, if at all, on the www, which generally seems to bring out the worst in people, but it's never too late to give it a try.



Speaking for myself, my brain is absolutely buzzing with some of the spinoffs from these two ideas but I've got to fry a few other fish before I share my thinking.

ATM stems from the " bank- o-matic " in the early 60s in the USA. Through refinements by companies like Smurfit dela Rue and nixdorf to the first practical ATM by IBM in the early 70s. Like all engineering, a set of iterative designs. I very much doubt it was started cause some guy wanted to knock a hole in a bank.

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Old 10-04-2014, 16:40   #92
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Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Returning to the advertised program, for those who ARE interested in crisis response being “devolved to the local level” (as a policy wonk might pontificate):

Reliability is not the issue: the issue is tolerance of real world challenges. Challenges like knockdowns, downflooding and such.

And in that context, the ability to struggle home without recourse to Dave's beloved rescue services.

But even the unqualified promises of reliability ring hollow, to me.

The reliability of European cars has taken a severe tumble in the last decade, and it's no longer mechanical failure which is the problem: it's electronics.

Even Japanese cars are losing their shine, partly for this reason, and partly because the workforce, reduced to babysitting duties for flash automation, have become de-skilled and less adaptable when inevitable production glitches challenge them, and less creative in making improvements to systems. (Google Toyota "replacing robots with humans"). I think sailors and others should reflect on the larger import of this sobering development, not just on the engine reliability implications.

As for the implication that ‘old school’ marine diesels are necessarily unreliable, maybe people who share that strange conviction have accidentally slipped through a wormhole from alternate universe where they had ‘Yamnar’s and ‘Vovlo’s?

Another point: The operating environment. There *are* sailors, some future portion of whom may have fledged their baby feathers on this forum, who return to civilisation only infrequently, and as a last resort.

I spent time recently with a friend who sails out of the Falkland Islands. He hadn’t taken his boat anywhere more industrialised than my humble home port in NZ, and to my surprise he got me to do a job not able to be done in Port Stanley's best commercial workshop. In my own machine shop, that is, which is little more than a home shop.

He had re-engined with a 4 cyl diesel transplanted from an old LandRover, because they're in plentiful supply where he's based. (The job I did was on his windlass, not the Landie, BTW)

- - - -

Anyone who tries to keep a modern Volvo running in sub-Saharan Africa might not be impressed by lyrical cheerleading for the reliability of modern engineering, and the increasingly pervasive inroads of modern electronics.

VW Beetles, 70's Landcruisers, and the venerable dust-coloured Benz 1418 trucks (the ones with their engine in a great muzzle like a dog, already ancient when I was a kid) are still in hot demand in that part of the world.

I'm not sure where to start , as an industrial EE, I know I can ( and others ) build electronics that will out last any mechanical system and cope with environments that would fry a human in minutes.

As to modern engines. Funny to day an engine doing 200,000 miles is not unusual in my Dads day his Humber was clapped out at 80 k. Not to mention the body was rusted through after 10 years , yet today I regularly see 20 year old cars.

Funnily 25 years ago I threw out TVs cause they failed , today after many years they go to the recycling collector fully working.

MY 15 year old a Gateway PC is still working as in fact is every old desktop I ever owned. The only thing that failed was the only spinning mechanical part. All my iPhones right back to my 3G are still working

Ps anything including landies from Leland were junk. I know I worked on parts of there assembly automation.

I see no data to suggest that European cars have become unreliable. If anything the opposite. They remain behind the Japanese , primarily because of European focus on performance , but as a whole JD Power confirms that cars over the last 10 years have got more reliable and maintenance costs have fallen as a result.

Your arguments matter not , technology marches on. In 10 years with electronics on all ( remaining ) IC engines we will look at these conversations like we do the " full keel" debate.

Sail on

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Old 10-04-2014, 17:09   #93
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Methinks you spend too much time in shiny new cities. Go to any small farm and you will see a strong preference for older, simpler, more robust machinery. I don't think that sort of thing will die out entirely soon as a result, too much demand for it world wide.


Your iPhones are a classic example. They may "work", but only at the whim of Apple. The next OS may remove functions you expect today. Attach software to a system and that system is no longer owned by you, it's owned by whoever maintains the software.
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:41   #94
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
ATM stems from the " bank- o-matic " in the early 60s in the USA. Through refinements by companies like Smurfit dela Rue and nixdorf to the first practical ATM by IBM in the early 70s. Like all engineering, a set of iterative designs. I very much doubt it was started cause some guy wanted to knock a hole in a bank.

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(sigh) I didn't expect to be proved right so soon about the naysaying cultural tendencies of the www; still, no show without Punch!

I also expected to be proved wrong on this occasion, because my self-selected opponent is on his own turf for once. Furthermore I'm just repeating a story which as far as I know could well be urban myth.

Frankly I don't see that it matters much: parables would not be rendered more useful if they were to recount real events.
Suggesting, in order to belittle, that "some guy wanted to knock a hole in a bank" is a perfect illustration of imperviousness to the power of metaphor. Furthermore, it's an effective way of hosing down any prospect of creative insights from the practice of brainstorming, in my experience, and it doesn't have to be intentional to be effective.

The importance of the ATM was *not* as a technological or labour-cost saving innovation. For the first time, banks had a piercing insight as to whose property the money in their custody actually was, and realised that their delusions of ownership had been getting in the way of the customers' needs
And yet, in spite of my expectations, the established pattern seems to endure even this last challenge:

Barclay's (UK) ATM precursor (the first machine to dispense cash, and the one cited in the mythology about brainstorming) was on the Enfield streets prior to the Bankomat (only just - it was a close-run thing)

And it wasn't the early sixties, it was 1967.

But I find it increasingly unedifying to keep finding myself reduced to an unpaid and unwilling fact-checker, in fact I can feel my will to live seeping away measurably with each fresh instance, so from now on I plan to stop reading posts from that quarter.

I suspect it would help everyone's equanimity if he would reciprocate, and it might even help him to go boating now.
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:44   #95
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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(sigh) I didn't expect to be proved right so soon about the naysaying cultural tendencies of the www; still, no show without Punch!

I also expected to be proved wrong on this occasion, because my self-selected opponent is on his own turf for once. Furthermore I'm just repeating a story which as far as I know could well be urban myth.

Frankly I don't see that it matters much: parables would not be rendered more useful if they were to recount real events.
Suggesting, in order to belittle, that "some guy wanted to knock a hole in a bank" is a perfect illustration of imperviousness to the power of metaphor. Furthermore, it's an effective way of hosing down any prospect of creative insights from the practice of brainstorming, in my experience, and it doesn't have to be intentional to be effective.

The importance of the ATM was *not* as a technological or labour-cost saving innovation. For the first time, banks had a piercing insight as to whose property the money in their custody actually was, and realised that their delusions of ownership had been getting in the way of the customers' needs
And yet, in spite of my expectations, the established pattern seems to endure even this last challenge:

Barclay's (UK) ATM precursor (the first machine to dispense cash, and the one cited in the mythology about brainstorming) was on the Enfield streets prior to the Bankomat (only just - it was a close-run thing)

And it wasn't the early sixties, it was 1967.

But I find it increasingly unedifying to keep finding myself reduced to an unpaid and unwilling fact-checker, in fact I can feel my will to live seeping away measurably with each fresh instance, so from now on I plan to stop reading posts from that quarter.

I suspect it would help everyone's equanimity if he would reciprocate, and it might even help him to go boating now.
I think Dave entirely missed the brainstorming point!
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:46   #96
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

I have a 22 year old 4wd with an early EFI engine and it still goes well. In fact it is a much more reliable engine than the same model vehicle fitted with the exact same motor but with no electronics and carburetor.

HOWEVER:
A few years ago, it would randomly refuse to start no matter what. To fix it I needed four things 1) an interface cable from the engine diagnostics connector to a laptop; 2) A laptop loaded with the engine diagnostics software; 3) Test instruments comprising a multi meter and oscilloscope; 4) last but not least the knowledge to know how to fault find the issue.

Now I did fix that problem which was simply a bad earth wire connection to the ECU located at the engine block but the point is - not even mentioning the combination of electronics and saltwater - that, as reliable as electronics can be - and well designed electronic systems are very reliable - the level of expertise and tools required to trouble shoot and fix problems is beyond the scope of many.
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:53   #97
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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I have a 22 year old 4wd with an early EFI engine and it still goes well. In fact it is a much more reliable engine than the same model vehicle fitted with the exact same motor but with no electronics and carburetor.



HOWEVER:

A few years ago, it would randomly refuse to start no matter what. To fix it I needed four things 1) an interface cable from the engine diagnostics connector to a laptop; 2) A laptop loaded with the engine diagnostics software; 3) Test instruments comprising a multi meter and oscilloscope; 4) last but not least the knowledge to know how to fault find the issue.



Now I did fix that problem which was simply a bad earth wire connection to the ECU located at the engine block but the point is - not even mentioning the combination of electronics and saltwater - that, as reliable as electronics can be - and well designed electronic systems are very reliable - the level of expertise and tools required to trouble shoot and fix problems is beyond the scope of many.

The exact same thing could be said of say the Injector pump, my only serious diesel failure was a internal drive failing In a Perkins m130 engine ( an extremely reliable engine ) this was a completely mechanical engine with no turbo.

That required the services of a skilled diesel injector shop. I suspect fixing such pumps is beyond the scope of many,

At least carrying a spare ECU and replacing its is far simpler then replacing a injector pump.

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Old 10-04-2014, 18:02   #98
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
(sigh) I didn't expect to be proved right so soon about the naysaying cultural tendencies of the www; still, no show without Punch!



I also expected to be proved wrong on this occasion, because my self-selected opponent is on his own turf for once. Furthermore I'm just repeating a story which as far as I know could well be urban myth.



Frankly I don't see that it matters much: parables would not be rendered more useful if they were to recount real events.


Suggesting, in order to belittle, that "some guy wanted to knock a hole in a bank" is a perfect illustration of imperviousness to the power of metaphor. Furthermore, it's an effective way of hosing down any prospect of creative insights from the practice of brainstorming, in my experience, and it doesn't have to be intentional to be effective.



The importance of the ATM was *not* as a technological or labour-cost saving innovation. For the first time, banks had a piercing insight as to whose property the money in their custody actually was, and realised that their delusions of ownership had been getting in the way of the customers' needs


And yet, in spite of my expectations, the established pattern seems to endure even this last challenge:



Barclay's (UK) ATM precursor (the first machine to dispense cash, and the one cited in the mythology about brainstorming) was on the Enfield streets prior to the Bankomat (only just - it was a close-run thing)



And it wasn't the early sixties, it was 1967.



But I find it increasingly unedifying to keep finding myself reduced to an unpaid and unwilling fact-checker, in fact I can feel my will to live seeping away measurably with each fresh instance, so from now on I plan to stop reading posts from that quarter.



I suspect it would help everyone's equanimity if he would reciprocate, and it might even help him to go boating now.

As a famous parliamentarian once said " my goodness , I feel like I've been head butted by a dead sheep " lol

Dave


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Old 10-04-2014, 18:12   #99
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Further thoughts on reliability

Now that the supply of low hanging fruit for technological innovation has largely been exhausted,Le meilleur est l’ennemi du bien is a realisation increasingly trampled underfoot, in a headlong stampede to confuse, and often defeat, authentic progress with mere change for the sake of change.

Complex systems in a highly competitive, cost-conscious market, result in reduced fault tolerance, and frequently cease operating altogether with minor, even trivial faults.

Sometimes it's not even a fault in the machine, it's an oversight by the programmer: We've all had printers we can't use for black and white because the yellow cartridge has run out.

As for trivial faults defeating key systems: a car's climate control system will fail due to the 'ambient air temperature sensor' getting a bit of stuff on it, for pity's sake.

This would not be an issue, except the driver is not encouraged to know about it: the location may be concealed and even the existence is likely to be unsuspected, or at best submerged in a welter of other complications to achieve trivial ends.

Humans can tell for themselves when they are hot or cold. If you need to get back to your warm Yukon or Alberta home at 3am, in winter, it's actually fairly important that your vehicle does not think it knows what's best.

And instead of the system being able to be manually modulated in a 'get you home' mode, an almost imperceptible coating of road grime can easily cause it to oscillate between roasting us and freezing us.

The heater on the cars of my youth were crappy, but if the knob broke or the control valve jammed, you could modulate the output by tying a constrictor knot around a rubber hose with a broken shoelace.
You didn't have to know which hose: you just tried them both and picked the one which yielded the desired result. And you didn't generally need tools to dismantle the dashboard: the heater hoses were visible in the footwell.

- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0

Cars of that era were notoriously unreliable, but it quickly improved. I think the apex was Japanese cars, notably Toyotas, probably from the early 70s or thereabouts.

Our cars were always older than we were, so before the Japanese introduced carmakers to the novel idea that cooling systems should actually work, I still recall Mum emptying out her handbag in order to struggle down a muddy riverbank, to refill the radiator of some marvel of British "engineering"...

but you could still arrive at the destination without resort to outside help, sometimes the same day you planned to. And it is relatively straightforward to keep them running after some fashion, even to this day.

And to some of us, that's quite a compensation. Because outside help is in short supply, when you look at a map of the world’s oceans.

It’s bloody expensive getting it onsite, someone might die in the interim, and *someone* has to pay.
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:17   #100
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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The exact same thing could be said of say the Injector pump, my only serious diesel failure was a internal drive failing In a Perkins m130 engine ( an extremely reliable engine ) this was a completely mechanical engine with no turbo.

That required the services of a skilled diesel injector shop. I suspect fixing such pumps is beyond the scope of many,

At least carrying a spare ECU and replacing its is far simpler then replacing a injector pump.

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No. Entirely different. Had I replaced my ECU I would have had the same problem. Had you replaced your injector pump, The problem would be fixed. My point is that electronics can be difficult to troubleshoot and the old fallback of swapping out bits and pieced until the problem is fixed does not always work.
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:37   #101
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Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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No. Entirely different. Had I replaced my ECU I would have had the same problem. Had you replaced your injector pump, The problem would be fixed. My point is that electronics can be difficult to troubleshoot and the old fallback of swapping out bits and pieced until the problem is fixed does not always work.

I wasn't really drawing a one to one conclusion. What i meant is that there are failure points on engines both electronic and mechanical that are beyond most peoples ability to fix. Perhaps we are in need or more electronic training !

Hence we establish a risk versus failure mode and plan according , some sailors go off and learn in depth how to repair diesels, some bring comprehensive spares, some rationalise the risk and do little more then carry a few spares and common sense.

Electronics are no different, then say an injector pump. Both require specialist skills to repair. But those that want to can mitigate such issues as they deem necessary, including adding personal skills.

I know many people that see engines as incompressible boxes. Equally those that see electronics the same way. But that doesn't make electronics any worse or better

Controlling an engine with a piece of electronics can increase its reliability or poorly implement ted decrease it. YMMV A cheap engine will always be just that

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Old 10-04-2014, 18:44   #102
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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I wasn't really drawing a one to one conclusion. What i meant is that there are failure points on engines both electronic and mechanical that are beyond most peoples ability to fix. Perhaps we are in need or more electronic training !

Hence we establish a risk versus failure mode and plan according , some sailors go off and learn in depth how to repair diesels, some bring comprehensive spares, some rationalise the risk and do little more then carry a few spares and common sense.

Electronics are no different, then say an injector pump. Both require specialist skills to repair. But those that want to can mitigate such issues as they deem necessary, including adding personal skills.

I know many people that see engines as incompressible boxes. Equally those that see electronics the same way. But that doesn't make electronics any worse or better

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I see where you are coming from. I have formal electrical engineering qualifications and rate my knowledge of diesel engines as near non existent. Even so, I'd much prefer to trouble shoot the mechanically injected lump of iron sitting in the boat than my car's turbocharged CRD engine!
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:00   #103
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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I see where you are coming from. I have formal electrical engineering qualifications and rate my knowledge of diesel engines as near non existent. Even so, I'd much prefer to trouble shoot the mechanically injected lump of iron sitting in the boat than my car's turbocharged CRD engine!

Maybe , but that's you, personally I prefer to plug my obd 2 scanner into my trucks ECU and have it tell me my throttle sensor is getting sticky just like I did yesterday on my truck.

In my case I carry a full wiring diagram on my ipad of the truck and my toolbox has as many electronic diagnostic tools as it has wrenches ( well almost ) my trucks Internet forum provides fantastic insights into the ECU fault codes etc.

Personally having grown up rebuilding engines , give me nice clean understandable, electronics to diagnose any day lol. , but that's just me.

It's just a requirement that we move with the times and acquire new skills and comfort levels to deal with new technology, alternatively we can pine for the past , listen forever to music from the showband era and complain that today's kids are terrible etc etc , all that shows is we are old. Lol

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Old 10-04-2014, 19:06   #104
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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That I understand but what is a reasonable solution for manually starting a small (54hp yanmar) diesel with limited space?
Maybe so,e one is already on this, but there was a company marketing a spring starter for common marine diesels around 10 years ago. No idea who it was, but they ran around $600 or so for a 4 cylinder.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:10   #105
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Maybe , but that's you, personally I prefer to plug my obd 2 scanner into my trucks ECU and have it tell me my throttle sensor is getting sticky just like I did yesterday on my truck.

In my case I carry a full wiring diagram on my ipad of the truck and my toolbox has as many electronic diagnostic tools as it has wrenches ( well almost ) my trucks Internet forum provides fantastic insights into the ECU fault codes etc.

Personally having grown up rebuilding engines , give me nice clean understandable, electronics to diagnose any day lol. , but that's just me.

It's just a requirement that we move with the times and acquire new skills and comfort levels to deal with new technology, alternatively we can pine for the past , listen forever to music from the showband era and complain that today's kids are terrible etc etc , all that shows is we are old. Lol

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Don't get me wrong, I get a kick out of being able to turn each cylinder injector off independently via diagnostics software. Last problem I had with my old fourby was a failed throttle position sensor (must be a common failure point!). Diagnosed instantly via the ECU and diagnostics. The new replacement price was $$$ and I couldn't get a used one for love or money locally. Ended up getting a used one from the USA at a half reasonable price. The rub is, the same engine in carburetted form doesn't even have a TPS which makes it kind of like the old six one way, half a dozen the other argument.
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