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Old 09-04-2014, 17:03   #76
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Good point, some air intakes permit that. (a child sized rubber ball is sometimes recommended)

It's not as free-spinning as genuine decompression, because the engine is trying to pull a vacuum, but I doubt there's a great diff, and for a single cylinder engine it's potentially almost as good as proper decompressor

It is progressively less useful as an engine's number of cylinders increases, because it's "all or nothing".

To start a multicylinder engine with insufficient cranking power, it's necessary to introduce compression to one cylinder at a time.

And you'll need to *keep* cranking vigorously, through the early introductions. At least until the engine pulls away from whatever it is you're cranking with, not just tentatively but with some semblance of conviction. The heat from the cylinders which are compressing and firing will be sucked away into the block around those which are not. I guess it would make sense to recompress the end cylinders first, at least in theory, so they don't have a heat sink on both sides.

If you have time on your side, and the cooker is functioning, draining out the coolant and heating it in a big pan can make a crucial difference. Once the coolant is reintroduced, you'll need to temporarily clamp the bypass hose between where the cooling water enters the block and the thermostat housing (refer the recent thread on thermostats if this doesn't compute)
thanks andrew, not bs after all,never tried it,but knew i had read about decompressing this way on the forum.
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Old 09-04-2014, 18:40   #77
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

What I find amusing , is a wistful nostalgic attempt to reclaim the past. This is usually a sign that we are getting old.

A modern computer controlled engine is as reliable as any other type. Road vehicles and off road vehicles are testimony to that. Equally if you want to , you can carry spares ECUs etc ( you have a an injector pump and a starter spare too , right ! ) electronics are just like all other spare parts. No more then you will fix an injector pump at sea , neither will you fix an ECU.

Modern systems should be approached with modern ideology not a desire to reintroduce the stationary steam engine.

It easy today to ensure you have standby batteries and multiple alternative charging sources. No proper well found cruising boat should loose power or the ability to generate such power.

Rather then inventing air starters, drill motor starters and taking a wobbly black and decker to fit decompression lever to your high tech engine could I suggest several alternatives

(A) consider a honda generator.

(B) consider a gasoline powered crash pump. Far more useful then anything fitted to the main diesel, in practice if you can't sort the problem with such a pump , it's lost anyway.

All of these solutions are certainly easier to implement then some of the things suggested in this thread

Modern engines can and are designed for either low weight to performance criteria ( ie leisure rating ) or commercial ratings. All are available and good quality engines are more reliable then anything gone before.

Modern systems just require modern thinking , not re introducing the horse and cart.

Part of the reason , we sometimes get caught out. Is that modern diesels are so reliable we take them for granted.

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Old 09-04-2014, 19:52   #78
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Cyclone Steam Engine Pushes Closer To Land Speed Record




Lots of other exciting examples. Steam power rocks!
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Old 09-04-2014, 21:38   #79
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Violently disagree with the idea that electronics should even be utilized on a marine diesel. Mechanically injected engines need clean fuel and air to run as long as it's wear tolerances are in specifications. Add electronic injection and now have those pesky salt water, humid environment hating electrons added to the mix. It's relatively easy to trouble shoot a mechanical diesel with little more than a wrench and screwdriver. Throw electronics into the mix and I suddenly have to be a skilled technician with expensive test equipment to figure out what's wrong. If I've reached that level of enlightenment to figure out what's wrong with the engine if it's electronics I can buy overpriced modules in the hopes that they will fix the problem.

It's one thing to have electronics with all their benefits on a Gasoline engined car. If it craps out, can always coast to the side of the road, call AAA, and have it towed to the nearest shop. In most places in the US, probably within 50 miles. If my diesel craps out in mid ocean, it could be weeks, even months and 5 figure miles to get to an electronically akamai mechanic. But wait, I can trouble shoot and possibly fix the problem if it's a mechanically injected diesel or find a mechanic in very out of the way places that can figure it out. Just fixed my good old Yanmar 3GM when it died this past weekend.

If you want back up for your engine, carry a spare starter, have two separate batter banks, and at least a small solar panel to charge the batteries back up if they are inadvertently discharged.

Bringing along gasoline generators, etc is just greatly adding to unreliable power sources that may not work after being stored in a damp, salty boat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
What I find amusing , is a wistful nostalgic attempt to reclaim the past. This is usually a sign that we are getting old.

A modern computer controlled engine is as reliable as any other type. Road vehicles and off road vehicles are testimony to that. Equally if you want to , you can carry spares ECUs etc ( you have a an injector pump and a starter spare too , right ! ) electronics are just like all other spare parts. No more then you will fix an injector pump at sea , neither will you fix an ECU.

Modern systems should be approached with modern ideology not a desire to reintroduce the stationary steam engine.

It easy today to ensure you have standby batteries and multiple alternative charging sources. No proper well found cruising boat should loose power or the ability to generate such power.

Rather then inventing air starters, drill motor starters and taking a wobbly black and decker to fit decompression lever to your high tech engine could I suggest several alternatives

(A) consider a honda generator.

(B) consider a gasoline powered crash pump. Far more useful then anything fitted to the main diesel, in practice if you can't sort the problem with such a pump , it's lost anyway.

All of these solutions are certainly easier to implement then some of the things suggested in this thread

Modern engines can and are designed for either low weight to performance criteria ( ie leisure rating ) or commercial ratings. All are available and good quality engines are more reliable then anything gone before.

Modern systems just require modern thinking , not re introducing the horse and cart.

Part of the reason , we sometimes get caught out. Is that modern diesels are so reliable we take them for granted.

Dave


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Old 09-04-2014, 22:00   #80
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

If I adopted Dave's habitual and unrepentantly admitted tactics of attacking ideas emanating from some unspecified off-thread location, (a.k.a. "tilting at windmills"), and compounded this by labelling his ideas, as he routinely does those of others, based on a two-word synopsis of some inferred motivation, evidently in order to belittle:

(my goodness, what a verbose sentence!)

perhaps I, too, would be "amused"

However some of us are discussing this topic for serious reasons, rather than entertainment.

For that reason, among others, (including forum rules, which I applaud)

I have to append to my opening lines: "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that"
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Old 09-04-2014, 22:23   #81
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Returning to the advertised program, for those who ARE interested in crisis response being “devolved to the local level” (as a policy wonk might pontificate):

Reliability is not the issue: the issue is tolerance of real world challenges. Challenges like knockdowns, downflooding and such.

And in that context, the ability to struggle home without recourse to Dave's beloved rescue services.

But even the unqualified promises of reliability ring hollow, to me.

The reliability of European cars has taken a severe tumble in the last decade, and it's no longer mechanical failure which is the problem: it's electronics.

Even Japanese cars are losing their shine, partly for this reason, and partly because the workforce, reduced to babysitting duties for flash automation, have become de-skilled and less adaptable when inevitable production glitches challenge them, and less creative in making improvements to systems. (Google Toyota "replacing robots with humans"). I think sailors and others should reflect on the larger import of this sobering development, not just on the engine reliability implications.

As for the implication that ‘old school’ marine diesels are necessarily unreliable, maybe people who share that strange conviction have accidentally slipped through a wormhole from alternate universe where they had ‘Yamnar’s and ‘Vovlo’s?

Another point: The operating environment. There *are* sailors, some future portion of whom may have fledged their baby feathers on this forum, who return to civilisation only infrequently, and as a last resort.

I spent time recently with a friend who sails out of the Falkland Islands. He hadn’t taken his boat anywhere more industrialised than my humble home port in NZ, and to my surprise he got me to do a job not able to be done in Port Stanley's best commercial workshop. In my own machine shop, that is, which is little more than a home shop.

He had re-engined with a 4 cyl diesel transplanted from an old LandRover, because they're in plentiful supply where he's based. (The job I did was on his windlass, not the Landie, BTW)

- - - -

Anyone who tries to keep a modern Volvo running in sub-Saharan Africa might not be impressed by lyrical cheerleading for the reliability of modern engineering, and the increasingly pervasive inroads of modern electronics.

VW Beetles, 70's Landcruisers, and the venerable dust-coloured Benz 1418 trucks (the ones with their engine in a great muzzle like a dog, already ancient when I was a kid) are still in hot demand in that part of the world.
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Old 09-04-2014, 22:37   #82
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Peter, the old Green Demons are like zombies, they just keep getting back up and chugging along. I just bought an MD7A mostly because it had the hand crank option, and it had been fresh water cooled its whole life. I also picked up a Whale Gusher 25 at a swap meet for $50. I need to order a rebuild kit from Defender for $95 and I will have my cockpit mounted hand pump, with a Whale Gusher 10 mounted down below. After 8 or 9K miles without a self bailing cockpit, I know the value of good hand pumps. Give my love to Faye. _____Grant.
Grant, aren't you forgetting something like a boat to put all those toys in. Making any inroads on that front?? I see so many classic boats on the market at excellent prices makes me want to become a multiple boat owner. Of course logical Faye says, "You haven't finished with your current project!!"

Still have the spare crank for my MD2. Let me know if you can use it.
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Old 09-04-2014, 22:45   #83
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

For engines with lots of clearance directly above or to one side:

Have a large drum (pressure cooker pot?) that fits to the crankshaft like a standard hand crank does (releases when engine starts).

Lock crankshaft with a piece or rope wrapped around the drum opposite of the desired rotation.

Wrap bungee cord around drum 2 or 3 turns in the desired rotation direction. Affix other end of bungee several feet above or to the side. Add however many cords needed to start engine (discovered by trial and error).

When ready to start engine, cut the rope (stay the hell out of the way of that drum when it comes flying off the engine).

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Old 09-04-2014, 22:52   #84
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

The other alternative to electric starting is to have a 'spring' starter. these replace the starter, just crank it up with a half inch ratchet, a tap on the release button with a hammer and off you go.
As for the water ingress, think 'out of the box' why not go to the root of the problem and stop the water coming in first ? Use a sail, carefully drop it over the front and cocoon the hull, tie it up tight at the bow, sides & stern. then pump the water out before you start blocking/repairing the hole.
A 'Y' valve on the engine water intake with a hose to the bilge and a strum box will shift the water from the bilge.
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Old 09-04-2014, 23:35   #85
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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...why not go to the root of the problem and stop the water coming in first ? ...
That's fine if you know where it's coming in, in the usual case, that's often not obvious: even if the location of the leak is not in an inaccessible location behind joinerwork, it may be underwater before you get to where it is.

In such situations it can be crucial to buy time by reducing or reversing the rate of water accumulation.

Spring starters, for engines they fit, are certainly a very attractive option.

Earlier in the thread a number of sources were linked: if you can add any fresh sources to these it would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 09-04-2014, 23:43   #86
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

How about a snap on nylon pump housing cover over the outboard motor prop to make a pump out of a common and easily maintained item. I see a commercial product here. Prop as impeller and ob as motor Hmmmm.......
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Old 10-04-2014, 01:24   #87
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Seems to me both Steve's and Lojanica's ideas are classic brainstorming.

So far out of left field that they jolt thinking entirely off the rails.

Remember how ATM machines got invented: a UK bank was brainstorming ways they might remove the barriers between the bank's customers and their money. Someone said "Why don't we knock a hole in the wall and let them help themselves"

In a culture of put-downs and sneering, that suggestion would never be made, and if it was, certainly no-one would say "Well, hang on just a minute ...."

One of the great conventions of fruitful brainstorming is that people who have seen how the process can work will run with aspects of each idea looking for further new angles, and ways the idea can be made workable, and move ahead of established methods.

It's helpful, indeed necessary for best results, if this process is not clogged up and negative emotions brought into play by finding fault with deficiencies, at least until the supply of new ideas dries up.

I've not seen this happen much, if at all, on the www, which generally seems to bring out the worst in people, but it's never too late to give it a try.

Speaking for myself, my brain is absolutely buzzing with some of the spinoffs from these two ideas but I've got to fry a few other fish before I share my thinking.
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Old 10-04-2014, 02:34   #88
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
(A) consider a honda generator.

(B) consider a gasoline powered crash pump. Far more useful then anything fitted to the main diesel, in practice if you can't sort the problem
What about adding an electric submersible pump, in stead of a separate gasoline powered pump. Power it of the Honda. Cheap, and they can even pass sizable pieces of debris...
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Old 10-04-2014, 04:11   #89
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Violently disagree with the idea that electronics should even be utilized on a marine diesel. Mechanically injected engines need clean fuel and air to run as long as it's wear tolerances are in specifications. Add electronic injection and now have those pesky salt water, humid environment hating electrons added to the mix. It's relatively easy to trouble shoot a mechanical diesel with little more than a wrench and screwdriver. Throw electronics into the mix and I suddenly have to be a skilled technician with expensive test equipment to figure out what's wrong. If I've reached that level of enlightenment to figure out what's wrong with the engine if it's electronics I can buy overpriced modules in the hopes that they will fix the problem.

It's one thing to have electronics with all their benefits on a Gasoline engined car. If it craps out, can always coast to the side of the road, call AAA, and have it towed to the nearest shop. In most places in the US, probably within 50 miles. If my diesel craps out in mid ocean, it could be weeks, even months and 5 figure miles to get to an electronically akamai mechanic. But wait, I can trouble shoot and possibly fix the problem if it's a mechanically injected diesel or find a mechanic in very out of the way places that can figure it out. Just fixed my good old Yanmar 3GM when it died this past weekend.

If you want back up for your engine, carry a spare starter, have two separate batter banks, and at least a small solar panel to charge the batteries back up if they are inadvertently discharged.


Bringing along gasoline generators, etc is just greatly adding to unreliable power sources that may not work after being stored in a damp, salty boat.
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Old 10-04-2014, 08:49   #90
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Peter, picking up a large capacity pump was a no brainer. I am working on getting a specific 30 foot boat that I dont want to discuss right now. Even if I dont get the one I want, any boat I buy will be 30 to 35foot and need upgrading. Small boats rarely come equipped for cruising, and I have somewhat set Ideas of what I want. As you say , there are so many classic boats for sale that finding one is not hard. Upgrading and refitting is the tough job. Keeping the water out, and the rig up are the very basics. Its all fun, and Faye is right about projects. _____Grant.
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