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Old 15-04-2014, 17:29   #196
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by bornyesterday View Post
If the outboard's not fixed to the engine then the belt will pull on the engine mountings - which could be catastrophic.

Curious about the Yanmar camshaft suggestion too. Presumably if "the handstart on the 1GM and 2GM is via the camshaft" there are reduction gears?
I don't know the Yanmars but I haven't met a 4-stroke where the camshafts didn't run at 1/2X engine speed rather than 2X?
Of course you're right. I fell down a rabbit hole in labyrinth of my own internal processes.

Apologies, all.
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Old 15-04-2014, 17:35   #197
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by tedsherrin View Post
All these ideas are interesting readying and it's great to brain storm. But I think some, even many are getting a little far fetched.
Brainstorming and far-fetched are synonyms, where I come from

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Originally Posted by tedsherrin View Post
The simplest way to start an inboard diesel when the batteries have died, or water ingression (after the water has been reduced), is to get a portable starter pack. These are less than $100 and pack a punch that would give you one or two attempts at starting it, maybe more. You just have to remember to keep it charged.
That's fine provided you also carry a spare starter motor.

I won't say a spare ring gear too, because I'm not aware of one of those ever stripping, en route!

However starter motors are not particularly well adapted to the saltwater environment, especially if they have been energised while (possibly unbeknownst) still carrying a saltwater payload.
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Old 15-04-2014, 17:40   #198
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by capt-couillon View Post
Excellent point... and (as usual) I have an unrequested opinion.

Let me say in advance, I understand the purpose of an "automatic" bilge pump. Especially for those who do not live aboard their vessel. My float switch is connected to a LOUD alarm rather than to a pump. Chronic leaks can fail to catastrophic proportions if not located and evaluated.

I don't mean that classic over the bunk drip, I mean the leaking thru-hull hose, failed packing gland on the engine shaft, etc.... Now I am fortunate enough to have a dry boat. If I have water in the bilge, I have a problem. Unless I were to notice the auto-pump cycling on at random times, how would I know I am shipping water from a small (for now) chronic leak? Wet socks getting out of the rack is a damn good clue. Hopefully I am a little more dedicated to eyeballing the bilge as a full time live aboard... but
it happens.

Two inches above wet sock level the "Grand Theft Auto" alarm goes off, and even if I am not around someone is gonna investigate (What the hell is that?) Any substantial leak is gonna overwhelm my little 500 gph normal pump any way.

Anyway, just food for thought.
Some installations have prominent LEDs scattered through the boat, connected to the float switch(es) at the bottom of the sump(s), to alert occupants to a slow leak, and "Last Judgement" trumps like yours when the level gets high enough to indicate that the low-drain, small volume electric pump is no longer keeping up.
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Old 15-04-2014, 17:45   #199
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by capt-couillon View Post
...Unless I were to notice the auto-pump cycling on at random times, how would I know I am shipping water from a small (for now) chronic leak?...
Decades ago someone sold a device that recorded the number of times a bilge pump came on; I think it was called Pump-Watch, or thereabouts. One can probably do the same thing using an hour meter.
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Old 15-04-2014, 18:00   #200
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Decades ago someone sold a device that recorded the number of times a bilge pump came on; I think it was called Pump-Watch, or thereabouts. One can probably do the same thing using an hour meter.


My main sump has a pump cycle meter on it. I could find out what model it is. It's nice to have.
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Old 15-04-2014, 22:03   #201
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

I got around to reading the Crash Test Boat Sinking article, thanks for that.
Well worth a thorough read.

About the hand-cranked drill they recommend carrying, in order to be able to drill underwater: I totally agree, with a proviso (which I will get to)

I remember my relief at finding such a tool in the workshop of a large yacht, which was potentially at risk of foundering in the Southern Ocean.

It turned out that when it left port in a hurry, a bunch of inspection port covers had been left off. These were intended to allow access to the drive shafts for the winches from the crew trenches aft of the mast, but what the owner and BN didn't realise was that the same access tunnels doubled as ventilation ducts.

I discovered that we had a problem, having just used the head, and was in the act of closing the door behind me when a solid column of green water appeared from the overhead extractor fan and vanished into the bilge, through the slotted sole.

It was a bit like the title sequence from "Mr Bean"

Anyway (for reasons I won't go into): to rectify the situation, I needed to drill some fresh holes. This had to be done in a situation where, kneeling in the leeward crew trench, I was up to my nipples in ocean from time to time. If I hadn't had a mouthful of screws, I might have called "Very good, Number Two, bring her up to periscope depth"

So it was lucky that someone had the foresight to ship an 'eggbeater' drill, and a goodun, too.

A plastic and powdercoat cheapo, in my experience, is worth even less than it will cost. Even setting aside corrosion possibilities, generally the gearsets and chucks on the ones I've struck have been so poor, and the frictional drag so predominant, that it was an exercise in absolute frustration trying to do anything useful with them.

I recommend getting a decent one from a by-gone era, from a second hand tool dealer.
If it has a 'proper' keyed chuck, so much the better.

(Jacobs make stainless keyed chucks, if you're that kinda guy.
Their target market includes surgeons. Doesn't bear thinking about, eh ....)


In an aluminium yacht, it would be highly viable to fit a patch from the inside, with through-holes around the periphery, provided you could get access, either using self tappers or long blind pop rivets. Even in a steel hull, the latter strategy might be a winner, although you'll need a bunch sharp bits and a strong fit person to wield the eggbeater drill.

I recall Raud O'Brien in the 34' steel "Little Wing" sailing a circumnavigation with a chronic leak (from, IIRC, a dodgy weld or two at the skeg root - I might have mentioned this further up the thread) which he was unable to stem with sealant.

I'm sure a patch would have done the trick; the skeg was never in danger of falling off (he got all the way round with it not doing so, in any case)

It turned the trip from a delight into an ordeal, not because of the danger but the stress and perpetual discomfort (wet bedding, Yuk!) in a boat which didn't leak a drop, otherwise.

In his case the patch would have been in a very difficult place to get to, and maybe it would not have been possible to drill holes through the hull, but surely he could have drilled holes for a bracing arrangement to keep a goo-slathered patch firmly clamped against the hull over the cracked welds.

It could be well worth a steel boat carrying a few rectangles of 5mm soft aluminium (1000 series) which could easily be beaten to match the local curvature to serve as patches.

I know another boat, come to think of it, which was abandoned because of the combo of a chronic leak, loss of electric power (and inability to start the engine as a result) and a couple (with no other adults) and a small child on board.

It was en route from Panama to (I think) Marquesas. About 2011 ... the book, called "Sea Fever" was serialised on NZ Nat Radio recently, and it was heart rending.
Very honest account by Angela Meyer.
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Old 15-04-2014, 22:45   #202
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

I have that exact stainless chuck on a hand-operated stainless surgical drill!

Also have one of the old Stanley "push" screw drivers.
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Old 16-04-2014, 09:12   #203
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Hmmm... Long handled "yankee" type screwdriver with 1/4 inch hex chuck, 1/4" hex driver , hex-head tek screw (self drilling). Drill and install screw in one step with one tool. Magnetic hex driver lets you do it one handed.

Not what I would use for a permanent situation, but might work really well for screwing into frp on an emergency basis.

Think its time to test that out. Have used the same combo with a cordless. No reason it shouldn't work with a yankee. And I can push it really really fast if I'm scared.
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Old 16-04-2014, 09:16   #204
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Using a small gasoline engine to start a large engine is a proven concept. It's my understanding that at least some WWII bombers used this technique to start their main engines. The Italian company Piaggio built Italy's bombers during that era, and the starter motor for one of their bombers was adapted for the first Vespa motorscooter prototype in 1946.

I agree that it would likely be necessary to store kinetic energy by having the outboard running near the peak of its power curve, and then applying the momentum to the diesel's crankshaft via some sort of clutch -- which could be as simple as quickly tensioning a slack V-belt. A small flywheel could be incorporated into the outboard pulley assembly to increase the rotating mass and the instantaneous torque applied to the crankshaft.

A far easier way to multiply the torque would be to use a relatively small pulley on the outboard's shaft and a much larger one on the diesel's crankshaft.

If there is room in the engine compartment, some sort of bracket could be fabricated to mount the outboard on existing bolts on the engine -- with an appropriate hinge point or hinged idler pulley to apply the belt tension via a lever -- and the whole bracket assembly stowed away for emergency use.

Ain't brainstorming fun?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
This may be a workable idea. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion, however, that a V belt, used as a slipping clutch, will transfer enough torque to the crankshaft to start any diesel other than the smallest, particularly one without decompressors / valve lifters.

However if a pulley was instead fitted to the camshaft (which could be feasible say on a Yanmar 2 or 3GM) this would double the torque, and provide better speed matching.
(The handstart on the 1GM and 2GM is via the camshaft)
I've used slipping V belts in lieu of a clutch on small machine tools, notably lathes, and there's a fairly low ceiling on the torque they can provide when there's a significant speed delta, eg a 'standing start' situation.

Furthermore the small pulley, on the outboard, might simply not have enough surface area in contact with the belt to do provide anything more useful than frictional heating. If the pulley diameter is increased, it will be trying to crank the motor ridiculously fast, given that small outboards need to run at two to three times the speed of a small diesel to develop usable amounts of torque.

However, it may be that the high cranking speed achievable with a sensible ratio could be used in conjunction with "blocked air intake" jury decompression, to achieve a 'momentum' start, like 'bump' starting a car.

In the present context, this implies spinning the engine rather fast, then recompressing all cylinders simultaneously by removing the obstruction.

There are two ways of increasing the storage capacity for (angular) momentum:

1) a heavier, and/or larger diameter flywheel (absent in modern engines)

2) spinning it faster (which the ingenious adaptation of an outboard motor, per Terra Nova's interesting proposal, might permit)

A fringe benefit: prolonged and energetic spinning of the engine, partially decompressed in this ad-hoc way, might achieve a useful degree of pre-warming of the block and the oil.

It would pay to have the stop lever pulled, to prevent excess diesel washing the walls of the bores during the preheating phase.

Push it back in before recompressing.

Energetic preheating could be particularly useful if the engine is no longer in good condition, and/or has certain forms of indirect injection but no glowplugs (like most Yanmars), and/or when sailing in very cold waters.
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Old 16-04-2014, 18:31   #205
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I got around to reading the Crash Test Boat Sinking article, thanks for that.
Well worth a thorough read.

About the hand-cranked drill they recommend carrying, in order to be able to drill underwater: I totally agree, with a proviso (which I will get to)

I remember my relief at finding such a tool in the workshop of a large yacht, which was potentially at risk of foundering in the Southern Ocean.

It turned out that when it left port in a hurry, a bunch of inspection port covers had been left off. These were intended to allow access to the drive shafts for the winches from the crew trenches aft of the mast, but what the owner and BN didn't realise was that the same access tunnels doubled as ventilation ducts.

I discovered that we had a problem, having just used the head, and was in the act of closing the door behind me when a solid column of green water appeared from the overhead extractor fan and vanished into the bilge, through the slotted sole.

It was a bit like the title sequence from "Mr Bean"

Anyway (for reasons I won't go into): to rectify the situation, I needed to drill some fresh holes. This had to be done in a situation where, kneeling in the leeward crew trench, I was up to my nipples in ocean from time to time. If I hadn't had a mouthful of screws, I might have called "Very good, Number Two, bring her up to periscope depth"

So it was lucky that someone had the foresight to ship an 'eggbeater' drill, and a goodun, too.

A plastic and powdercoat cheapo, in my experience, is worth even less than it will cost. Even setting aside corrosion possibilities, generally the gearsets and chucks on the ones I've struck have been so poor, and the frictional drag so predominant, that it was an exercise in absolute frustration trying to do anything useful with them.

I recommend getting a decent one from a by-gone era, from a second hand tool dealer.
If it has a 'proper' keyed chuck, so much the better.

(Jacobs make stainless keyed chucks, if you're that kinda guy.
Their target market includes surgeons. Doesn't bear thinking about, eh ....)


In an aluminium yacht, it would be highly viable to fit a patch from the inside, with through-holes around the periphery, provided you could get access, either using self tappers or long blind pop rivets. Even in a steel hull, the latter strategy might be a winner, although you'll need a bunch sharp bits and a strong fit person to wield the eggbeater drill.

I recall Raud O'Brien in the 34' steel "Little Wing" sailing a circumnavigation with a chronic leak (from, IIRC, a dodgy weld or two at the skeg root - I might have mentioned this further up the thread) which he was unable to stem with sealant.

I'm sure a patch would have done the trick; the skeg was never in danger of falling off (he got all the way round with it not doing so, in any case)

It turned the trip from a delight into an ordeal, not because of the danger but the stress and perpetual discomfort (wet bedding, Yuk!) in a boat which didn't leak a drop, otherwise.

In his case the patch would have been in a very difficult place to get to, and maybe it would not have been possible to drill holes through the hull, but surely he could have drilled holes for a bracing arrangement to keep a goo-slathered patch firmly clamped against the hull over the cracked welds.

It could be well worth a steel boat carrying a few rectangles of 5mm soft aluminium (1000 series) which could easily be beaten to match the local curvature to serve as patches.

I know another boat, come to think of it, which was abandoned because of the combo of a chronic leak, loss of electric power (and inability to start the engine as a result) and a couple (with no other adults) and a small child on board.

It was en route from Panama to (I think) Marquesas. About 2011 ... the book, called "Sea Fever" was serialised on NZ Nat Radio recently, and it was heart rending.
Very honest account by Angela Meyer.


Got a whole collection of brace-and-bits (what you call an "eggbeater"), including the very large models with a full chest brace. Can't understand how you'd use one underwater. It takes both hands to operate one, and you have to apply a lot of pressure (hence the brace). You'd just push yourself away from the hull you are trying to drill into. Maybe if you harness yourself to suction cups on the hull? Sounds like a good way to drown....
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:06   #206
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

I'm a little lost, 'why' would you want to drill under water?
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:40   #207
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Got a whole collection of brace-and-bits (what you call an "eggbeater"), including the very large models with a full chest brace. Can't understand how you'd use one underwater. It takes both hands to operate one, and you have to apply a lot of pressure (hence the brace). You'd just push yourself away from the hull you are trying to drill into. Maybe if you harness yourself to suction cups on the hull? Sounds like a good way to drown....
I'm guessing you (and tedsherrin) didn't read the crash boat article?

The damage was in the bilge area, hence any drill used for the repair had do be capable of being used underwater. From inside the boat.

Whereas in my first-person story, I was working above-decks, and the sort of bracing you refer to was no problem 'cos I was in a trench, but it did mean being intermittently underwater due to adverse seastate. (Which at high southern latitudes is 'bracing', in another way, I guess!)

I'm familiar with brace-and-bit, but what I'm talking about is a smaller arrangement with a 90 degree crown-gear for continuous operation, like a hand-cranked egg beater. Was known as a 'hand drill' prior to the days of electric drill motors. Which, in general, even in modern times, do not enjoy being submerged.

Kapeesh?
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:46   #208
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

I did watch it, but didn't pick up on the bit about a drill. They used a small axe to break away the bilge wall. But that was only to demonstrate the water ingression in the test. I didn't think they were advocating intentionally making the water ingress further into the bilge. If it stays put in the one area, then as they said, the water would rise to the top of that enclosed bilge area and stop. A bit like a fish holding tank. In which case, why would you want to then drill holes further to release the water?

Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 16-04-2014, 20:14   #209
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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I did watch it, but didn't pick up on the bit about a drill. They used a small axe to break away the bilge wall. But that was only to demonstrate the water ingression in the test. I didn't think they were advocating intentionally making the water ingress further into the bilge. If it stays put in the one area, then as they said, the water would rise to the top of that enclosed bilge area and stop. A bit like a fish holding tank. In which case, why would you want to then drill holes further to release the water?

Maybe I'm missing something.
I wasn't talking about the video (which I haven't yet watched: I was talking about the article. (Write-up and photos)

The purpose of using a drill was that their most effective repair (perhaps their only truly effective repair) was by screwing a patch to the hull.

They didn't have any success with bracing the patch, so they tried drilling holes around the periphery, and using self tapping screws. And being low in the boat, with several tons of water inside the hull, that meant drilling underwater.

NOT to let the water out; to try and keep it out.

Hope this clears it up.
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Old 16-04-2014, 20:17   #210
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I'm guessing you (and tedsherrin) didn't read the crash boat article?

The damage was in the bilge area, hence any drill used for the repair had do be capable of being used underwater. From inside the boat.

Whereas in my first-person story, I was working above-decks, and the sort of bracing you refer to was no problem 'cos I was in a trench, but it did mean being intermittently underwater due to adverse seastate. (Which at high southern latitudes is 'bracing', in another way, I guess!)

I'm familiar with brace-and-bit, but what I'm talking about is a smaller arrangement with a 90 degree crown-gear for continuous operation, like a hand-cranked egg beater. Was known as a 'hand drill' prior to the days of electric drill motors. Which, in general, even in modern times, do not enjoy being submerged.

Kapeesh?

Capisce!
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