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Old 13-04-2014, 18:00   #166
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

@ tedsherrin

There's a manual pump on my boat - I believe it's standard on most others too - but I think you probably mean the bigger more efficient ones?

In my book even they don't qualify as "crash pumps" because at my age I'd be lucky if I could use any manual pump continuously for more than a few hours - by which time I'm going to be exhausted if not having a stroke/coronary.

Given that I'm alone and pumping continuously I can't search for leaks, carry out repairs or do anything else to save my situation. So I'm SOL aren't I?

Without at least a couple of reasonably fit crew members I think a manual pump is a poor last resort - however big or efficient that pump might be.

Just my tup'nce.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:09   #167
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Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Having been involved in raising a couple of sunken boats over the years. I think the quest for massive water extraction is misplaced on a small yacht. Leaving aside, what solution might work and what others might not , you have to consider that on a breach requiring serious water extraction, you might find it exceeding difficult to seal the breach. ( or even find the breach )

Typically in a large breach, levels rise so fast as to deny you access to lockers , tools etc. often futile efforts to save the vessel, result in hurried and badly planned abandonment procedures.

I honesty think if you can't handle it with a big manual pump, ( in a reasonable time frame ) I suspect the game is up anyway.

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Old 13-04-2014, 18:11   #168
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by bornyesterday View Post
@ tedsherrin

There's a manual pump on my boat - I believe it's standard on most others too - but I think you probably mean the bigger more efficient ones?

In my book even they don't qualify as "crash pumps" because at my age I'd be lucky if I could use any manual pump continuously for more than a few hours - by which time I'm going to be exhausted or having a stroke/coronary.

Given that I'm alone and pumping continuously I can't search for leaks, carry out repairs or do anything else to save my situation. So I'm SOL aren't I?

Without at least a couple of reasonably fit crew members I think a manual pump is a poor last resort - however big or efficient that pump might be.

Just my tup'nce.
Yes, I earlier pointed out that Whale make a Gusher 30, which does up to 117 litres an hour. And yes, I was thinking of having crew on board. So point taken.

I've never had to use one of these man' pumps, but just checking mine and I've wondered how long I'd keep it up for. I would suspect that if the water is coming in quicker than you can keep it out, then realistically it's probably time to look at calling for help.

I know a lot of boats, will take in water up to the water line, and still take a while to sink. I doubt it with my steel boat though. But this does mean that even with a lot of water coming in, the emphasis needs to be on stopping the water coming in, not on getting it out. The removing the water comes after you have plugged the hole. In such a case, then a large man' hand bilge pump should be more than sufficient, I would think, even for a single hander.

However, I'm not experienced in these things. I've had one below water leak in my boat and I panicked and all I had to do was put my finger in the hole whilst I was treating my hyper ventilating with the other hand and a paper bag.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:12   #169
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Seems to me both Steve's and Lojanica's ideas are classic brainstorming.

So far out of left field that they jolt thinking entirely off the rails.

Remember how ATM machines got invented: a UK bank was brainstorming ways they might remove the barriers between the bank's customers and their money. Someone said "Why don't we knock a hole in the wall and let them help themselves"

In a culture of put-downs and sneering, that suggestion would never be made, and if it was, certainly no-one would say "Well, hang on just a minute ...."

One of the great conventions of fruitful brainstorming is that people who have seen how the process can work will run with aspects of each idea looking for further new angles, and ways the idea can be made workable, and move ahead of established methods.

It's helpful, indeed necessary for best results, if this process is not clogged up and negative emotions brought into play by finding fault with deficiencies, at least until the supply of new ideas dries up.

I've not seen this happen much, if at all, on the www, which generally seems to bring out the worst in people, but it's never too late to give it a try.

Speaking for myself, my brain is absolutely buzzing with some of the spinoffs from these two ideas but I've got to fry a few other fish before I share my thinking.

Agreed
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:13   #170
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Having been involved in raising a couple of sunken boats over the years. I think the quest for massive water extraction is misplaced on a small yacht. Leaving aside, what solution might work and what others might not , you have to consider that on a breach requiring serious water extraction, you might find it exceeding difficult to seal the breach. ( or even find the breach )

Typically in a large breach, levels rise so fast as to deny you access to lockers , tools etc. often futile efforts to save the vessel, result in hurried and badly planned abandonment procedures.

I honesty think if you can't handle it with a big manual pump, ( in a reasonable time frame ) I suspect the game is up anyway.

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Morning Dave, we're getting along pretty good today. My thoughts exactly.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:20   #171
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedsherrin View Post
Yes, I earlier pointed out that Whale make a Gusher 30, which does up to 117 litres an hour. And yes, I was thinking of having crew on board. So point taken.

I've never had to use one of these man' pumps, but just checking mine and I've wondered how long I'd keep it up for. I would suspect that if the water is coming in quicker than you can keep it out, then realistically it's probably time to look at calling for help.

I know a lot of boats, will take in water up to the water line, and still take a while to sink. I doubt it with my steel boat though. But this does mean that even with a lot of water coming in, the emphasis needs to be on stopping the water coming in, not on getting it out. The removing the water comes after you have plugged the hole. In such a case, then a large man' hand bilge pump should be more than sufficient, I would think, even for a single hander.

However, I'm not experienced in these things. I've had one below water leak in my boat and I panicked and all I had to do was put my finger in the hole whilst I was treating my hyper ventilating with the other hand and a paper bag.

I think you make a key point, the key to a breach in water tightness is to find and at very least stem the inflow. Then you can pump out the water. Most people cannot imagine how much water comes in from any sort of opening . Dewatering a 3" opening under water requires big big pumps.

I remember trying to lift a motor boat just below the surface, we got her basically resealed, with just one small port hole smashed. It still took 8 pumps ( 4-6 " hoses ) to finally lift her. ( we had a rescue barge beside her )

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Old 13-04-2014, 18:21   #172
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
...I think the quest for massive water extraction is misplaced on a small yacht...
Typically in a large breach, levels rise so fast as to deny you access to lockers , tools etc. often futile efforts to save the vessel, result in hurried and badly planned abandonment procedures.

I honesty think if you can't handle it with a big manual pump, ( in a reasonable time frame ) I suspect the game is up anyway...
NEVER give up.

The whole reason for a crash pump is to give you time to save your boat, save your crew, and save yourself.

Abandon ship procedures are best planned well ahead of an emergency.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:35   #173
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Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
NEVER give up.



The whole reason for a crash pump is to give you time to save your boat, save your crew, and save yourself.



Abandon ship procedures are best planned well ahead of an emergency.

I'm sorry , the never give up is a cliche.

A classic case is people trying to fight a fire , only to underestimate the difficulty and almost succumb to it as a result. It takes significant experience to ascertain what is winnable and what is not.

Have a look at the case of Megawatt, which lost it's rudder on a trip between Ireland and Scotland. The skipper was a very experienced sailor. The boat filled in a couple of minutes. Then the liferaft was deployed , and failed. They were lucky there was a 2nd boat.

I think , firstly unless you can ascertain the extent and location of the breech, and stem the flow, any such significant one will overwhelm you physically , or exhaust your fuel, batteries etc. I think you have to " give it the college try" , but you must also retain your critical facilities. If it's unwinnable , it's unwinnable, and orderly abandonment to the liferaft is the order of the day.

Mine is not an argument against having a crash pump

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Old 13-04-2014, 19:20   #174
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Re: emergency engine start

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i just put all the sails up,and when i get to 26 knots,just put the 6cylinder in gear and bump start it.....................................
I have actually bump started an old put put boat towed behind a power boat

There's also the youtube video of the jet boat in NZ putting out a boat fire by doing a flyby and swamping it. I won't link it due to the bad language...
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:28   #175
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

The 3" diesel pump I'm looking at costs less than 400 and shifts 600 Litres per minute.

That's 6 tonnes every ten minutes until the diesel runs out. If I'm asleep and wake up swimming I should still be able to save the boat.

Sold.
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:40   #176
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Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by bornyesterday View Post
The 3" diesel pump I'm looking at costs less than 400 and shifts 600 Litres per minute.



That's 6 tonnes every ten minutes until the diesel runs out. If I'm asleep and wake up swimming I should still be able to save the boat.



Sold.

Thats of course after you , dig it out of the recesses of a dark locker, hopefully one above the flood level , manhandle it into position , rig it with suction and discharge hoses , fuel and start it,( with luck first time) get it to prime. Etc.

not arguing against independent crash pumps. After all I was the first one to suggest it as my simple solution. But I think you have to be realistic

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Old 13-04-2014, 19:59   #177
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Thats of course after you , dig it out of the recesses of a dark locker, hopefully one above the flood level , manhandle it into position , rig it with suction and discharge hoses , fuel and start it,( with luck first time) get it to prime. Etc.

not arguing against independent crash pumps. After all I was the first one to suggest it as my simple solution. But I think you have to be realistic

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watertight bulkheads and bouyancy compartments are looking pretty good at this point in the thread..........
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Old 13-04-2014, 20:00   #178
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

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watertight bulkheads and bouyancy compartments are looking pretty good at this point in the thread..........

Only in a monster vessel like yours atoll.

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Old 13-04-2014, 20:00   #179
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

@goboatingnow

Yep, deepest, darkest locker I possess, buried under a ton of stuff and on top of the liferaft.
Unused and untested for a couple of years at least, hoses at the other end of the boat, crushed by more stuff, oh bugger where's the diesel.

"After all I was the first one to suggest it as my simple solution." Oh that must be where I got the idea from... hope I remembered to say "Thanks?"

Someone let me know if I start posting contradictory opinions in the same thread please?

Jeezus.
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Old 13-04-2014, 20:40   #180
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Re: Inability to keep the water out > Long distance rescue

http://www.outboardjets.com/index.php

12. Why don't we make jet drives for less than 25 HP?

We lose about 30% of the HP when converting from propeller to jet drive. With less than 25 HP, it is difficult to plane a boat with two people. If it won't plane, it will not operate successfully in shallow water.




But one could make a plastic trash pump to fit over a prop on a small OB. Before passage making just slap it on so it's ready to go.



Still seems viable.


Definitely bad mcgyvering
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