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Old 14-09-2015, 14:34   #1
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I Need a Knot

I have seen a very salty method to identify the rudder amidship position on the wheel. This had some small braid laced around the wheel where the spoke intersects. Looked a bit like a monkey's fist, but was wrapped around both the spoke and the wheel rim. And it just stood slightly proud of the wheel rim so you could sense it by touch (as in the dark).

Anyone know what I am talking about? It was a very "artsy" woven pattern. I suspect one of the knot gurus knows precisely what this is.

Always looking to learn some new knots/ropework.

TIA
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Old 14-09-2015, 14:38   #2
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Re: I Need a Knot

It was probably a Turk's head knot.
4 braids would be woven, 2 passing either side of the spoke.

SWL

Edited to add:
They are called 'leads' not 'braids'.
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Old 14-09-2015, 15:00   #3
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Re: I Need a Knot

It took all of 4 min for Ms. Lass to answer a knot question. Methinks she must have some sort of alarm when the word "knot" turns up in a post

I'm still grateful for the zeppelin bend. Been showing it to everybody I can.

To the OP: SWL is obviously correct.


(Not my image, borrowed from a thread on the same subject)
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Old 14-09-2015, 15:21   #4
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Re: I Need a Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post
It took all of 4 min for Ms. Lass to answer a knot question. Methinks she must have some sort of alarm when the word "knot" turns up in a post
Yep

I'm now trying to work out how to do the 4 lead version (aka a Pineapple knot). Pity we don't have a wheel .

SWL
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Old 14-09-2015, 15:31   #5
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Re: I Need a Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post
It took all of 4 min for Ms. Lass to answer a knot question. Methinks she must have some sort of alarm when the word "knot" turns up in a post

I'm still grateful for the zeppelin bend. Been showing it to everybody I can.

To the OP: SWL is obviously correct.


(Not my image, borrowed from a thread on the same subject)
Close, but not quite. I should have photographed it. I don't recall the three parallel lines you show. It seemed a bit more elaborate but I think we are on the right path
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Old 14-09-2015, 16:26   #6
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Re: I Need a Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by redsky49 View Post
Close, but not quite. I should have photographed it. I don't recall the three parallel lines you show. It seemed a bit more elaborate but I think we are on the right path
A Turks Head is not limited to three parallel lines, you can have as many as you want. ABOK devotes a whole chapter to this family of knots. He states:

There are three distinct kinds of TURK'S-HEADS that are much the same in appearance , but are differently contrstructed:

STANDING TURK'S-HEAD, which is tied with any number of strands
COACH WHIPPING which is tied with any even number of strands.
The common TURK'S-HEAD which is tied with a single strand.

Google "Turk's Head Knot" and you will see many different varieties
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Old 14-09-2015, 16:31   #7
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Re: I Need a Knot

Stu, do you know how to get started on a 4 braid lead version? I can manage a 3 without any problems.

I have searched the IGKT, but most links lead nowhere. I don't have enough internet left this month to check out any of the YouTube instructions.

SWL
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Old 14-09-2015, 17:36   #8
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Re: I Need a Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Stu, do you know how to get started on a 4 braid version? I can manage a 3 without any problems.

I have searched the IGKT, but most links lead nowhere. I don't have enough internet left this month to check out any of the YouTube instructions.

SWL
Does this help:

https://sites.google.com/site/newknoticalarts/n3
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Old 14-09-2015, 21:37   #9
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Re: I Need a Knot

Thanks to everyone. Now that I know what the knot is called, Google was very helpful. Also found various alternatives under "rope weaving", of which I never would have thought.

And I am now considering a version using two different colored paracords. Need to visit the chandlery.

Cheers!
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Old 15-09-2015, 04:26   #10
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Re: I Need a Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Brilliant! Many thanks Stu
The system of using a "mule" is ingenious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redsky49 View Post
Thanks to everyone. Now that I know what the knot is called, Google was very helpful. Also found various alternatives under "rope weaving", of which I never would have thought.

And I am now considering a version using two different colored paracords. Need to visit the chandlery.

Cheers!
Hi Redsky
Prompted by your thread I am trying decorative knots for the first time.
I don't know if you have found a good instruction source for Turk's Heads (watching YouTubes would probably be useful), but here is a bit I have learned since last night:

The initial single strand "braid" can be made up of odd or even leads.

Two leads: Dead easy (just wraps one around the other in a series of overhands
Three leads (what seems to be classically known as a Turk's Head): Fairly easy. Grog gives simple to follow instructions:
Turk's Head | How to tie a Turk's Head | Decorative Knots

Four, six, eight ... leads are just built up on a two lead.
Five, seven, nine ... leads are just built up on a three lead.

One you have completed the number of leads with just the one strand, continuing to wrap more strands is child's play as you have a pattern to follow and you just keep going around and around as many times as you wish. Not giving each lead the same number of strands produces some interesting patterns.

I attempted a three lead first. So far so good. To get the hang of Turk's Heads, I suggest anyone starting off try this first to get a bit of skill and confidence.

I muddled with four leads getting nowhere until Stu provided the link for even leads. That helped, but my result was still a bit like you achieve when drop a loose line in a locker and fish it out a week later . The problem is deciding on the right number of initial turns in the starting two lead and keeping them even. Being past midnight did not help .

Stu's link kept referring to Lesson 1 (odd leads), so this morning I finally did the sensible thing and worked through building on a three lead to make a five lead. After the initial completion of the five leads, I wove the cord around another five times, producing two parallel strands, known as a 5 lead/9 bight (the bights are the number of times you go around after the initial one).
It was not hard, you just need a little patience and concentration to initially create the leads.
This is the link to Lesson 1:
https://sites.google.com/site/newkno...ucket-bracelet

And here is the first try result:




The more leads you have and the more more bights you weave, the narrower and narrower the diameter becomes, so leave plenty of room. The diameter of the above started larger than 4 fingers and ended up too small to fit on my wrist.

I will try even leads again tonight, now that odds are easy. Evens surely can't be that much harder . Can anyone familiar with decorative work comment on how best to work out the number of overhands needed initially in the starting two lead? That is a stumbling block at the moment.

I presume when you are wrapping a Turk's Head around an object like a wheel, that you weave a big diameter first then go back and tighten each strand to make it snug?

SWL
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Old 15-09-2015, 04:52   #11
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Re: I Need a Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post

I presume when you are wrapping a Turk's Head around an object like a wheel, that you weave a big diameter first then go back and tighten each strand to make it snug?

SWL

You got it
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Old 15-09-2015, 08:11   #12
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Re: I Need a Knot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Brilliant! Many thanks Stu
The system of using a "mule" is ingenious.




Hi Redsky
Prompted by your thread I am trying decorative knots for the first time.
I don't know if you have found a good instruction source for Turk's Heads (watching YouTubes would probably be useful), but here is a bit I have learned since last night:

The initial single strand "braid" can be made up of odd or even leads.

Two leads: Dead easy (just wraps one around the other in a series of overhands
Three leads (what seems to be classically known as a Turk's Head): Fairly easy. Grog gives simple to follow instructions:
Turk's Head | How to tie a Turk's Head | Decorative Knots

Four, six, eight ... leads are just built up on a two lead.
Five, seven, nine ... leads are just built up on a three lead.

One you have completed the number of leads with just the one strand, continuing to wrap more strands is child's play as you have a pattern to follow and you just keep going around and around as many times as you wish. Not giving each lead the same number of strands produces some interesting patterns.

I attempted a three lead first. So far so good. To get the hang of Turk's Heads, I suggest anyone starting off try this first to get a bit of skill and confidence.

I muddled with four leads getting nowhere until Stu provided the link for even leads. That helped, but my result was still a bit like you achieve when drop a loose line in a locker and fish it out a week later . The problem is deciding on the right number of initial turns in the starting two lead and keeping them even. Being past midnight did not help .

Stu's link kept referring to Lesson 1 (odd leads), so this morning I finally did the sensible thing and worked through building on a three lead to make a five lead. After the initial completion of the five leads, I wove the cord around another five times, producing two parallel strands, known as a 5 lead/9 bight (the bights are the number of times you go around after the initial one).
It was not hard, you just need a little patience and concentration to initially create the leads.
This is the link to Lesson 1:
https://sites.google.com/site/newkno...ucket-bracelet

And here is the first try result:




The more leads you have and the more more bights you weave, the narrower and narrower the diameter becomes, so leave plenty of room. The diameter of the above started larger than 4 fingers and ended up too small to fit on my wrist.

I will try even leads again tonight, now that odds are easy. Evens surely can't be that much harder . Can anyone familiar with decorative work comment on how best to work out the number of overhands needed initially in the starting two lead? That is a stumbling block at the moment.

I presume when you are wrapping a Turk's Head around an object like a wheel, that you weave a big diameter first then go back and tighten each strand to make it snug?

SWL

I agree. This is an area of knots and rope work I had never experienced prior. My wife, who is am accomplished knitter, will most likely enjoy this as well (she is currently attending her grand children, 2 and 19 months, and I am a boat bachelor), as she has more the temperament for such work. I am better with big hammers and things less delicate.

I will attempt my first effort this evening, and, if not totally embarrassing, will post my modest results.

Thanks again to all!
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Old 15-09-2015, 10:24   #13
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Re: I Need a Knot

I've tied these on two boats to identify the king spoke. Each time it took about two bottles of beer.

Brian Toss has several videos on decorative knots. He makes it look easy. I would also reccommend his video on eye splices.


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Old 15-09-2015, 10:48   #14
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Re: I Need a Knot

Whoo hoo!
The "even lead Turk's Head" is in the bag. As suspected, the fault in my initial attempts lay in making too many turns in the two lead that starts this off. Lesson 2 in Stu's link showed a whole heap of turns, so I gave it six passes under. Just two were needed when tying it around my hand . No wonder the whole thing looked like a messy rats tail by the time I tried to complete one revolution . I should have photographed it before I unravelled it, as it would have given all of you a bit of entertainment. I burst out laughing looking at initial trials .

Once a four lead was successfully woven using less initial turns to form the two lead, next was trying to work out how to divide it to flow around the spoke of a wheel, but that wasn't too hard. Just keep winding as if it isn't there.

I couldn't find a suitable bit of T section to work on, so I used a plastic plumbing T piece. Wrong proportions, so it looks a bit odd, but no matter. The learning experience is the same.

This is the result:




So, as a very keen practical knot tyer, here are my tips when dipping first time into the realm of decorative knots by trying a Turk's head with an even number of leads to mark a ship's wheel:

- Start by learning to weave a three lead (see Grog)
- Next try a five lead (see Lesson 1, the link somewhere above). A three lead is easy and it provides a very stable base for building into a five lead.
- Next try a four lead (see Lesson 2, the link that Stu provided)
If winding it on your hand, only use two turns under for the initial two lead. It looks pitifully inadequate, but it is more than enough. It really helps to have learned what you need to do on a stable three lead base first, as in the initial stages of a four lead (based on an unstable two lead) it seems you are working with a bit of a loose mess.
- A four lead is used split around the king spoke to mark a ship's wheel.

Or just delegate this to the gopher on board . Saves pulling your hair out.

The use of a 'mule' is brilliant! Whoever thought of that deserves whatever is the Nobel prize equivalent for knot tyers. It truly simplifies the whole process of Turk's Heads once attempting anything more complex than a simple three lead.

Stu, thanks again for that invaluable link.

Redsky, we need a high five after you weave your first one . It is very satisfying getting it right. Thanks for the nudge to learn this knot.

SWL
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Old 15-09-2015, 15:59   #15
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Re: I Need a Knot

Decorative rope art is always attractive on a yacht. I added a turks head to the tiller of a boat in 1980 and it was still there 20 years later when I saw her again.
To learn how by human contact rather than on U tube - Find a Scout - we used to make woggles this way and often experimented with a few extra tweaks.
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