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Old 29-09-2015, 02:43   #16
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Re: How close to wind?

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Originally Posted by charliehows View Post
Been wondering...; can an average cruising yacht make better SOG directly into the wind sailing or motoring ie; tacking vs motoring directly into the wind? I'm fairly sure motoring is the winner but who knows?
A very complicated and interesting question, without an easy answer.

It depends on the boat, and also very much on the conditions.

These are broad generalizations for boats with reasonable upwind performance and engines capable of driving the boat at hull speed.

1. In calm conditions without enough wind to sail within a knot of hull speed, obviously motoring will be much faster.

2. In calmish conditions with reasonably flat sea, where you can either sail or motor within a knot of hull speed, motoring wins. It's trigonometry. If your tacking angle over ground is 110 degrees, then you sail 1.74 miles to get one mile upwind. So motoring directly upwind -- if conditions allow you to reach hull speed - one knot -- will be 1.74x faster than tacking under sail while sailing at hull speed - one knot.

3. Where it gets interesting is when the wind gets stronger and you start to fight head seas. Your motoring speed will start to fall. How fast can you motor directly upwind in 30 knots of wind? But your sailing speed might even increase, and since you are not sailing directly upwind, you're not fighting head seas as much. As the wind comes up, you have more an more power in your sails you can use to overcome the sea conditions. So at some point, you start to do better by sailing, so long as your boat is able to stay on the wind. At some point you have to reef down and upwind performance starts to deteriorate.

4. So over a certain range of conditions, sailing will be faster than motoring, for many boats. But there comes a time when you can't really make much progress either sailing or motoring. At that point the magic bullet is what one poster above mentioned. Sheet in very hard, with the main sail quite flat and the traveller up above the centerline, and motor sail about 20 degrees off the wind. In my experience this works up to quite strong conditions -- right up to point where it's dangerous to be pointing the bow into the waves.
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Old 29-09-2015, 06:40   #17
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Re: How close to wind?

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Sheet in very hard, with the main sail quite flat and the traveller up above the centerline, and motor sail about 20 degrees off the wind. In my experience this works up to quite strong conditions -- right up to point where it's dangerous to be pointing the bow into the waves.
Regarding motorsailing... My engine (westerbeke 55b) manual states the following:

"Maximum angle of rotation: Not to exceed 30 degrees for 30 minutes".

I wonder how I'm supposed to interpret that for determining, say, safe operating time at a 15 degree rotation.

I imagine that's roughly my angle of heel in the sheeted-in-tight, 20 degrees off the wind scenario. Maybe less, but it is a very tender boat..
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Old 29-09-2015, 07:47   #18
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Re: How close to wind?

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Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
Regarding motorsailing... My engine (westerbeke 55b) manual states the following:

"Maximum angle of rotation: Not to exceed 30 degrees for 30 minutes".

I wonder how I'm supposed to interpret that for determining, say, safe operating time at a 15 degree rotation.

I imagine that's roughly my angle of heel in the sheeted-in-tight, 20 degrees off the wind scenario. Maybe less, but it is a very tender boat..

Way I interpret that is your not time limited until you hit 30 degrees, then you have a 30 min limit.
I would have thought oil pressure would be the limiting factor, that is your fine until the low oil PSI alarm goes off, but that is not the case here, I wonder why the time limit?
Do you actually sail at 30 degrees? I know I have a different boat, but it seems as if I get them most speed at 15 degrees max, beyond 15, I'm just heeling more and making things more uncomfortable, but not going faster.
I actually will usually reef to get 10 degrees, I'm in no hurry and the wife is happier.
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Old 29-09-2015, 07:49   #19
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Re: How close to wind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
Regarding motorsailing... My engine (westerbeke 55b) manual states the following:

"Maximum angle of rotation: Not to exceed 30 degrees for 30 minutes".

I wonder how I'm supposed to interpret that for determining, say, safe operating time at a 15 degree rotation.

I imagine that's roughly my angle of heel in the sheeted-in-tight, 20 degrees off the wind scenario. Maybe less, but it is a very tender boat..
30 degrees would be the critical point at which the oil pump may start scavenging air. At less than that, it should be OK to run as long as you like (provided that you are not low on oil).
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Old 29-09-2015, 08:12   #20
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Re: How close to wind?

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Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
How close to wind can your yacht sail?

Hawk's optimum upwind angle was 27 degrees (apparent)
That was a deep fin keel fractional sloop

Silk's optimum upwind angle was 37 degree (apparent)
That was a centerboard ketch.

Your Malo will be somewhere in between those two.

Good sails, clean bottom, feathering prop, minimal 'excess windage' (bimini's, arches, solar panels, etc), and reduced weight in the ends (when in waves) will all make a meaningful difference in upwind angle
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Old 29-09-2015, 10:38   #21
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Re: How close to wind?

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I believe most sloops can make better overall progress in moderate conditions with the mainsail sheeted in and the engine going. Care must be taken to balance the driving force of both so one doesn't cancel the other.
Thats exactly what I do (above). The sail also gives a much smoother, comfortable ride. I nudge the throttle back as far as possible while still maintaining 5knots forward speed. You save a ton of fuel, and still make an excellent VMG into the wind. Also, if the engine conks...you already have sail set. Even a reefed main is a big help.
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Old 29-09-2015, 13:14   #22
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Re: How close to wind?

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Originally Posted by jreiter190 View Post
I believe most sloops can make better overall progress in moderate conditions with the mainsail sheeted in and the engine going. Care must be taken to balance the driving force of both so one doesn't cancel the other.
Especially on a catamaran or light displacement monohull (is that an oxymoron), I find it also depends a great deal on seas. In flat water we (St. Francis 44 cat) might do 7-8 knots in 20 kn true wind at 35-40 degrees AWA, but with steep 6-8' seas, to get that 7-8 we need to be at more like 50-55!
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Old 29-09-2015, 13:57   #23
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Re: How close to wind?

The golden rule of cruising is to go the same way as the weather, surely? Nothing spoils a cruise as much as a schedule... :-)
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Old 29-09-2015, 14:13   #24
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Re: How close to wind?

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The golden rule of cruising is to go the same way as the weather, surely? Nothing spoils a cruise as much as a schedule... :-)
That works great if you're puttering around the bay, or hopping over to the next port. I knew a guy who, when asked where he was off to, would say "I'm going reaching". And indeed -- he would sail in whatever direction was a beam reach.

But some people sail long distances to a specific place, and sometimes that requires sailing against the prevailing wind. In such cases "going the same way as the weather" is not an option.

And it's not only long distance types -- what if you sail TO somewhere, "the same way as the weather" -- and you need to come back at some point or another?

It's easy to say things like "the most dangerous thing on a boat is -- a schedule". But schedules are like budgets. Some people have more money and some people have more time, and some less. But EVERYONE no matter how rich, and no matter how free, has some kind of budget or another, whether it's a thousand or a billion, just like everyone has some kind of schedule. No one, but no one, has more than one lifetime to sit around waiting for a following wind.

Therefore, going upwind is something relevant to every sailor, without exception.
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Old 29-09-2015, 15:28   #25
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Re: How close to wind?

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Tee hee. . .
Anything under 100 degrees is doing really well for a loaded cruising boat.
. . .
Well, that's good news! I thought it was my fault we weren't pointing any higher.

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Old 29-09-2015, 16:07   #26
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pirate Re: How close to wind?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That works great if you're puttering around the bay, or hopping over to the next port. I knew a guy who, when asked where he was off to, would say "I'm going reaching". And indeed -- he would sail in whatever direction was a beam reach.

But some people sail long distances to a specific place, and sometimes that requires sailing against the prevailing wind. In such cases "going the same way as the weather" is not an option.

And it's not only long distance types -- what if you sail TO somewhere, "the same way as the weather" -- and you need to come back at some point or another?

It's easy to say things like "the most dangerous thing on a boat is -- a schedule". But schedules are like budgets. Some people have more money and some people have more time, and some less. But EVERYONE no matter how rich, and no matter how free, has some kind of budget or another, whether it's a thousand or a billion, just like everyone has some kind of schedule. No one, but no one, has more than one lifetime to sit around waiting for a following wind.

Therefore, going upwind is something relevant to every sailor, without exception.
Keep your hair on, Dockhead!

You are, of course, unfailingly accurate in your remarks. I've just spent the most appalling (weather-wise) summer driving my boat from the point of purchase to it's new home and most of the way I had to go to where the weather was coming from. And I had a schedule to keep.

I have a few sailing tips to share with the average sailor on how to maximise your velocity along track, but since so many others on here have already spoken loquaciously and accurately along those lines I thought I might just lighten the mood, instead.

So please accept my apologies for raising your ire, as I will accept yours for your typographically erroneous nomenclature.

Dolphin 18B.

Yours in sailing,

Dolphin 35
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Old 29-09-2015, 17:38   #27
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Re: How close to wind?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
A very complicated and interesting question, without an easy answer.

It depends on the boat, and also very much on the conditions.

These are broad generalizations for boats with reasonable upwind performance and engines capable of driving the boat at hull speed.

1. In calm conditions without enough wind to sail within a knot of hull speed, obviously motoring will be much faster.

2. In calmish conditions with reasonably flat sea, where you can either sail or motor within a knot of hull speed, motoring wins. It's trigonometry. If your tacking angle over ground is 110 degrees, then you sail 1.74 miles to get one mile upwind. So motoring directly upwind -- if conditions allow you to reach hull speed - one knot -- will be 1.74x faster than tacking under sail while sailing at hull speed - one knot.

3. Where it gets interesting is when the wind gets stronger and you start to fight head seas. Your motoring speed will start to fall. How fast can you motor directly upwind in 30 knots of wind? But your sailing speed might even increase, and since you are not sailing directly upwind, you're not fighting head seas as much. As the wind comes up, you have more an more power in your sails you can use to overcome the sea conditions. So at some point, you start to do better by sailing, so long as your boat is able to stay on the wind. At some point you have to reef down and upwind performance starts to deteriorate.

4. So over a certain range of conditions, sailing will be faster than motoring, for many boats. But there comes a time when you can't really make much progress either sailing or motoring. At that point the magic bullet is what one poster above mentioned. Sheet in very hard, with the main sail quite flat and the traveller up above the centerline, and motor sail about 20 degrees off the wind. In my experience this works up to quite strong conditions -- right up to point where it's dangerous to be pointing the bow into the waves.
Excellently well put - I suspected there is a point at which sail performance might outdo motoring.
On the subject of 'timetables' - I'm very fond of the maritime convention where a boat describes its course as sailing 'towards' a given destination acknowledging the vagaries of wind,weather and sea.
The question put forward about motorsailing in strong conditions and degrees of heel - I find that heel decreases once i head higher with the aid of motor - if you are getting more than 35* of heel either the boat has unusual characteristics or you are heading too far off the wind.
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Old 29-09-2015, 18:35   #28
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Re: How close to wind?

Ah, the realm of pointing ability is that of the racer.

The Malo is a beautiful vessel with clean lines with moderate wetted surface and sail area (100% main and fore triangle not racey but ...)

Of course, these attributes are factors in one's ability to point to windward ... along with the prismatic co-efficient the polar charts are defined with respect to loads imposed and righting moments achieved.

But in reality all these variable can change ... this is done by boat trim, similar to flying aircraft, given the conditions you are experiencing: sea state; wind strength, pressure and shear.

So, ones ability to point to windward depends on all these factors: hence the art of sailing with the understanding of the science, the balance of efficiency. It's almost "Zen" like, where by in light air "patients is a virtue" and heavy air "understanding brings success" or something profound like that. This comes from years of racing and subsequently translates to sailing by the intuition in the seat of your pants.

But for practical intended purposes, invite a professional racer on board to show you the ropes (LOL) ... you will learn about sail shape and trim, balance and pressure (lift) as well as how to balance the trim of your vessel (cruisers do not travel "liteship" like polar charts).

PS. If you need my services I am available
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Old 29-09-2015, 18:49   #29
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Re: How close to wind?

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7 degrees of what??

Jim
Each side of the square angle ;-)

New styled Malos tack easily within 90 in designer's sheet conditions. Similar like new styled HR, Najads, Reginas, etc.

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Old 29-09-2015, 19:51   #30
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Re: How close to wind?

An interesting thread.... But as a live aboard CAT cruiser, the ONLY thing I envy about monos, is their ability to sail upwind ( and closer to it).
To answer your question, my performance drops significantly if I get closer than 40 degrees off the wind and can't move at all (sail only) under 30 degrees off. I motor sail well 25 degrees off
However, I am rarely relegated to sail directly upwind for very long, and I generally have much better speed and comfort than a mono.. Hope it helps


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