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Old 16-07-2013, 03:47   #1
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Hive to on every boat...

Good morning sailors...
2 days ago I was cought outside of Cayman Islands by a storm. I was waiting 24 miles north of the Island to become morning to go in.
So, I practiced Hiv e to, to set the boat still and go down to sleep. I set the Jib, arranged the Main properly, set the rudder and went down. However, the boat would turn and turn and turn (Hunter 31-foot, 1984 built). It was hilarious, but I sleeped even this way for 5 hours.
In the morning, when to depart, I rolled in the Jib and by miracle, the boat set still and was totally balanced. Hours later, while getting the coordinates to tunr into the main channel of Cayman, I set again the boat and this time without Jib and o wonder, it seems to hive to without Jib.
Who of you has a Hunter 31-foot, that behaves the same and is this posible by balancing the boat different by the manufacturer?

Tks for your input and good wind
SYSerenity
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Old 16-07-2013, 04:39   #2
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Originally Posted by Syserenity View Post
Good morning sailors...
2 days ago I was cought outside of Cayman Islands by a storm. I was waiting 24 miles north of the Island to become morning to go in.
So, I practiced Hiv e to, to set the boat still and go down to sleep. I set the Jib, arranged the Main properly, set the rudder and went down. However, the boat would turn and turn and turn (Hunter 31-foot, 1984 built). It was hilarious, but I sleeped even this way for 5 hours.
In the morning, when to depart, I rolled in the Jib and by miracle, the boat set still and was totally balanced. Hours later, while getting the coordinates to tunr into the main channel of Cayman, I set again the boat and this time without Jib and o wonder, it seems to hive to without Jib.
Who of you has a Hunter 31-foot, that behaves the same and is this posible by balancing the boat different by the manufacturer?

Tks for your input and good wind
SYSerenity
I'm not an expert. On the other hand you don't have to be an expert to heave your boat to.

I have the boat you have. One of its traits (i just said this in another thread) is that esp. in higher winds, the freeboard acts as a sail. So you heaved two in two entirely different situations (I think that's what you meant by "hive?"), and on a tender boat like that early 80's Hunter, that will be two different sail settings. So in rough weather you used three sails, and in calmer weather you used two.

Any time the wind is up, you have to take the hull configuration of that boat into consideration. It's the only way to balance the boat, to take the freeboard into account.

You get it right, the boat will stay where you want OR sail her brains out, whichever you're looking for.

That high freeboard is one think that makes this boat a dicey choice for bluewater sailing. Then combine that with its keel configuration ...
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Old 16-07-2013, 05:46   #3
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pirate Re: Hive to on every boat...

Sounds to me like you had to much jib out if she just kept going in circles.. the force would be to much for the rudder to cope with at that slow a speed.. fully reef in the main then take in 2/3'rds of the jib and experiment from there... tho it does sound like your boat is one that is happy under main alone..
Play around till you find the right balance for your boat.. there's a lot of factors at play above and below the water.
Did not understand the 3 sails in bad weather and 2 sails in good weather at all... as posted above..
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:06   #4
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Sounds to me like you had to much jib out if she just kept going in circles.. the force would be to much for the rudder to cope with at that slow a speed.. fully reef in the main then take in 2/3'rds of the jib and experiment from there... tho it does sound like your boat is one that is happy under main alone..
Play around till you find the right balance for your boat.. there's a lot of factors at play above and below the water.
Did not understand the 3 sails in bad weather and 2 sails in good weather at all... as posted above..
I explained it, I think twice, in the post I made stating that claim.

That boat is never "under main alone" -- or headsail alone. It's never under only one sail. Until I figured that out I could not heave my boat to. I think the OP tumbled onto this by accident. I explained the "three sails" thing. The freeboard acts as a sail.

I even explained here (more than once now) how I sailed the boat into a slip using the freeboard as a sail. The wind on open water was about 20 mph, so it was probably 15 or less in that sheltered marina. The wind was from the north and the slip faced west. I let the wind catch the bow and it pushed the boat 90 degrees right into the slip. No sails were up and I had no steering.

The freeboard on the boat is an untrimmable sail. Move up to a 34' and the effect is even more significant.

There are three sails on that one-masted boat: the headsail, the mainsail, and the freeboard.

And, by the way, standard issue on that boat was a HOOD 810 "roller furler." With that roller furler you can't play with how much the headsail is out. It's either all out and all in. Try to partially furl it and you will find that even if the winds are light (5 mph) the sail will snap out completely.

I'm going to replace the lower unit on mine. HOOD has designed a replacement for the lower unit for this model.

IMO because of the tendency of this boat to catch the wind, people who have it should consider reefing sooner than they might on other boats, and consider using a smaller headsail than they might on another boat. If I were going to take this boat to the Keys I would consider putting a third reefing point in the mainsail. Mine has a tall rig configuration. Don't get me wrong -- I like the boat -- but it has its own characteristics, like any boat.
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:11   #5
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

So now I know that a motor boat only has one sail.

Coops.
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:20   #6
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

nothing unique about the freeboard, all yachts have it, like boatmaniac said
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:33   #7
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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So now I know that a motor boat only has one sail.

Coops.

If it has a high freeboard AND all the other traits of a hunter that contribute to it, like the big fat stern and the rapid taper to the bow that helps make it pivot so easily ... but are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that motor-powered boats are never affected by the wind, with all the structure some of them have above the waterline? Ever seen a big trawler? Ever see a big trawler trying to get into an unfamiliar slip fighting a current and 20 mph winds? 'Cuz I was on the dock and helped someone do that a couple of weeks ago, and it really did appear that the wing was affecting the boat's movement.

I mean, you wouldn't just be sniping ...
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:39   #8
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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nothing unique about the freeboard, all yachts have it, like boatmaniac said

As George Orwell said, "Some are more equal than others." That goes for boats -- and posters -- as well as horses and cows.

Do you really think the concept of how the wind affects a boat should be giggled at instead of discussed seriously? We've just had not one but two people note how the boat responds to wind. I've given two examples.

The guy I know who has the 34' really dislikes this trait in the boat and is going to sell his. it's a pronounced trait on this boat. I'm sure it's not the only boat where the trait is *pronounced,* but dismissing it with "all sailboats do that" is either ignorant or thoughtless (as in, "I didn't really think about that ...). Some boats do it more than others. It can be used to one's advantage or to one's detriment. It's an important thing to know about the Hunters of that design.

Let's see how long people tell me about my boat. Should be interesting.
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:44   #9
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pirate Re: Hive to on every boat...

Having owned and sailed a Hunter... bit bigger than yours Raku....
I'm well aware of their traits... however I think you'll find that your mast and standing rigging have a bigger (the main effect) factor than your 'freeboard'.... the siting of these determine how your boat will lay to the wind... with just the freeboard and no stuff up top you'll just drift more or less beam on..
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:53   #10
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Having owned and sailed a Hunter... bit bigger than yours Raku....
I'm well aware of their traits... however I think you'll find that your mast and standing rigging have a bigger (the main effect) factor than your 'freeboard'.... the siting of these determine how your boat will lay to the wind... with just the freeboard and no stuff up top you'll just drift more or less beam on..

I said other factors would enter in, but CLEARLY whe I put the boat in my neighbor's slip, I was using the freeboard. Maybe you're not as aware of it because you didn't have that particular experience? I didn't use the rigging to steer the boat into the slip. I used the freeboard. That boat has a particular feel to it as it turns. I'm sure you're familiar with it. With a good engine and the right pitch to the prop, the boat can turn in its footprint if you go with the wind and not against it (and it's not too high). I'm sure you've done it. I couldn't resist playing with it when I first got it. People in the club started calling me the "donut queen."

Yes, the boat does drift beam on in the wind, but why you think the rig is affecting that and not the freeboard is beyond me. If, as you say (and of course I believe you) that you had a bigger one), you experienced it more than me, not less.

the boat is also super-sensitive to wakes compared to other boats. That's not the rig.
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Old 16-07-2013, 06:54   #11
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

No, not sniping Raku, merely being flippant and humorous, I thought. I do however, think that we all know that our boats have windage, but have never heard it referred to as a third sail. Not saying that you are incorrect in calling it that, but it is a pioneering description you have forged there.

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Old 16-07-2013, 07:05   #12
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pirate Re: Hive to on every boat...

A boat pivots on its keel... the fineness of its bow has nothing to do with it... the mast and rig on sloops being located at the front half of the keel will/is the cause of the bow falling off/running before the wind not the freeboard.. although you may believe this is what's 'sailing your boat'...
But what the hell... makes no odds to me what your beliefs are..
Happy sailing..
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Old 16-07-2013, 10:21   #13
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

Sails can be trimmed. If your deck is cleaned off, your freeboard cannot. IMO, Raku is basically correct, in that you can use the windage to move the boat in some directions, but how she describes windage as a sail is inaccurate and somewhat misleading. Sorry Raku, but when you're finished being aggravated, please think about it.

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Old 17-07-2013, 05:33   #14
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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No, not sniping Raku, merely being flippant and humorous, I thought. I do however, think that we all know that our boats have windage, but have never heard it referred to as a third sail. Not saying that you are incorrect in calling it that, but it is a pioneering description you have forged there.

Coops.

Exactly, Coop. I think it is an intelligent way to think about why your boat might be handling the way it does. Each boat is "different," and we all say that all the time, but this is a difference on my boat that is noticeable to a lot of sailors around me.

My boat is in an east-west slip to the north of a Catalina 27' whose freeboard is noticeably lower than mine. The marina is exposed to the north. I was saying to my neighbor that if Chantal developed and went up the east coast of Florida, I would be moving my boat to a more sheltered marina for the duration.

He didn't see why; he had no problem with north wind; but for me, moving the boat close enough to the dock to get on and off safely in a strong north wind is a challenge, and the boat bounces around a lot. I catch a lot of north wind.

I told him -- if I move my boat, he should be prepared for the same thing, because my boat was sheltering him. Well, Chantal fell apart, but I think it's a good plan for me if a storm moves up the east coast. Not really interested in being trapped in a roller coaster for several days (Debby lasted several days, different situation, trapped on the boat because ofthe extreme high tides, but since she was pretty dry, could at least sit on the deck or in the cockpit.)

I was as frustrated as you by the exchange, and I will tell you why. What you saw as humerous also trivialized what I see as an important trait to know about my boat. One when trivializes something flippantly, it's a bit of a put-down. No one wants to think they do that, but the message sent was "you silly goose! All boats have windage!"

Of course they do, but the bigger the sail, the more wind it catches. Remember all that stuff we learned about reefing? You can't reef your freeboard. Some people don't need to reef, because they already have a small sail up. Well, I've got a big sail up just above the waterline, and I have to take it into consideration. I also know, now (one person who just posted here and one personally) who have noticed the same thing. I know a third, but he's had his boat a very long time and sails it so instinctiely that hes' not thinking about these things any more. But the guy with the 34'? Very experienced sailor who has had the boat about 18 months, and he dislikes the effect so much he's going to sell it.

I didn't know any better, so I just learned to work with it.


Boatman did not, but he has sailed a very long time.

We just had a post where someone said that newer sailors sometimes see things in new ways. I think this is one of those cases. It might explain why my friend with the 28.5 Cape Dory just won a race by putting one of his team members on the clew of the headsail. When they tacked, as soon as it was half over, she grabbed the clew and put all her weight to the new leeward side. They cut their tacking time in half and won the race against much faster boats.

It's why my boat is tricky to heave to. It's why she's harder to control in higher winds. It's why I could use the freeboard to sail her into a slip. It wasn't the rig. The rig was up the whole time. The wind caught the BOW and turned the boat 90 degrees (roughly).

It was the heaving to that caught my attention, as everyone knows I've been paying attention to 'storm' sailing. That's because at my skill level I'll be far enough away from safety to have to deal with them and I know I need to know more. Someone suggested "heaving to," and it occurred to me that I probably would not sleep unless I was far from shore because of the wind on the freeboard and the difficulty of getting her well balanced while heaved to.

There's a real reason behind what I'm saying, Coop, and if it's flippantly dismissed -- even though there's no malice intended -- it derails what is a very real concern for me.

You're a great guy but no one wants to have their comments "buzzed off," and I'm not here to just shoot the sheet. This is important for me.
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Old 17-07-2013, 05:35   #15
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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A boat pivots on its keel... the fineness of its bow has nothing to do with it... the mast and rig on sloops being located at the front half of the keel will/is the cause of the bow falling off/running before the wind not the freeboard.. although you may believe this is what's 'sailing your boat'...
But what the hell... makes no odds to me what your beliefs are..
Happy sailing..

If that one turn into that one slip were the only issue I would say "Wow. Thanks, Boatman!" But that's not the only time I have either deliberately used that high freeboard or seen its effect.

The effects of the rig are, I'm sure, quite real, but that's not all that's going on. You've just forgotten. It happens.
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