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Old 17-07-2013, 05:55   #16
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Sails can be trimmed. If your deck is cleaned off, your freeboard cannot. IMO, Raku is basically correct, in that you can use the windage to move the boat in some directions, but how she describes windage as a sail is inaccurate and somewhat misleading. Sorry Raku, but when you're finished being aggravated, please think about it.

Ann

THANK YOU ANN. I knew exactly what I was doing getting that boat into that slip, and exactly what she would do. So calling the windage a "sail" is an exercise in literary license, but helps one to think about that effect on the boat. So we're taling about phrasing here.

By the way, I'm not "aggravated." I think it's really important to understand how the freeboard affects my boat's maneuverability, stability, all sorts of things. Another poster here noted the same thing, and i know an outstanding sailor who has the same problem, only more so, on his 34' hunter. He wants a boat that doesn't have to be re-thought in difficult circumstances and is sailing it. I don't have his years of experience, just smile when it happens and deal with it.

It is a lot LIKE an untrimmable sail in some circumstances-- a physics metaphor (without the word "like" of ourse). The wind catches it and the forces significantly affect the movement of the boat. It really does affect how the boat heaves to, and in a heaving-to situation, which is what we were discussing, you really do have three surfaces to catch the wind, not two. If the freeboard is high enough, it will significantly affect what you need to do with the rudder, headsail, and mainsail. I know this from doing it. I've been on lots of other boats where the freeboard did not have such a significant effect -- so insignificant, in fact, that it didn't have to consciously be thought about.

This trait worked greatly to my advantage one day when I was without steering in a small space in a marina and had to secure her out of harm's way immediately. It has worked to my disadvantage the first ten times I tried to heave her to. I have to say that there were about ten people watching in the marina (you know how such a tangled mess draws an audience, I'm sure!) We all talked about it afterwards, and we could all could see that the wind caught the bow (I gave the engine a goose so she would have steerage), and turned her into the slip. Of course there were people there ready to help, and I had reverse, so I didn't plow into the dock. That would have rather spoiled my triumph ...

If the boat had not turned, goosing the engine would have driven me toward the boat ramp, not a good place for 4 1/2' draft.

It all came to a head again yesterday when someone else with the same boat was talking about heaving to as a strategy in rough weather, and we also had a discussion about the difficulties of getting a boat off a lee shore in a storm. These are very real issues for me on the boat I have.

To me, if you use windage to move a boat -- you've got a sail. I could take you out on this boat tomorrow and if the wind was 15 mph, I could position her so that she would move sideways considerably faster than most other boats (not a bigger Hunter of that design, though).
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Old 17-07-2013, 06:26   #17
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pirate Re: Hive to on every boat...

Raku... try taking of your mast and standing rigging then try those maneuvers again... don't get my motives wrong..
I'm not picking on you for fun... but you push a blog for 'New Sailors' and its kinda important for them.. and you to understand what the true dynamics are.
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Old 17-07-2013, 07:03   #18
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Raku... try taking of your mast and standing rigging then try those maneuvers again... don't get my motives wrong..
I'm not picking on you for fun... but you push a blog for 'New Sailors' and its kinda important for them.. and you to understand what the true dynamics are.

Really? I was talking about the finer points of boat design on my blog? For BEGINNERS? Where? You'd think i'd remember that.

I remember writing about channels taking unexpected sharp turns, that it's not like driving on a highway, that you have to line up the marker behind you with the marker in front of you, that water can go from deep to extremely shallow in a matter of seconds, that it's better to be away from shallow water in a storm ....

That's pretty basic stuff.

I'm really sure I haven't talked about boat design AT ALL.

But if you don't "know" what I'm saying about a Hunter 31' -- YOU'VE FORGOTTEN. Or you gave the bare poles more credit than they deserve. But when I have time, I'll calcuate the square footage of my mast and the square footage of my freeboard.

In a big blow the wind blows on everything, of course, but even then the Hunter has its own peculiarities. Run with the wind? You've got a big fat stern for both waves and wind to act on. It's NOT just the mast (and the rigging? in 15 mph?)

I reduced it some by getting rid of the stack pack, which made the boom much bigger. it was noticeable. I didn't do it for that reason, but I could see the effect when docking.

It isn't just the rigging. I refer people back to my comment about the big trawler that came in a couple of weeks ago when we were having such foul weather, with 20 mph winds from the north and a current. His dock ran east and west, and with both screws turning, he was moving to the south. It was the sailors (me, actually) who were able to tell him what to do.

He had to compensate for the windage on the side of his boat -- not his rig, because he didn't have one.

He did, and immediately was able to get his boat into the slip. No one on the dock argued with me -- they all said "Yeah -- do that!"
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Old 17-07-2013, 07:12   #19
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

Firstly , its not suprising that some boats dont Hove too well, many modern designs with extended cabin tops, high freeboard, spray hoods, beefy mast etc will "sail" of these and cause instability. Often you can hove too in conditions where you can sail , but cant remain safety Hove to in more extreme circumstances.

All you can do is try various sail combinations, there is no "right" way , just what is right for your boat, that may mean no headsail etc.

As to selling the boat because of windage , WTF, thats excludes about 90% of modern designs !!!

Dave
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Old 17-07-2013, 07:26   #20
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pirate Re: Hive to on every boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Really? I was talking about the finer points of boat design on my blog? For BEGINNERS? Where? You'd think i'd remember that.
Raku... you should really learn to read through the RED...
I never mentioned 'Beginners'... your blog advertises 'For Newer Sailors'...

I remember writing about channels taking unexpected sharp turns, that it's not like driving on a highway, that you have to line up the marker behind you with the marker in front of you, that water can go from deep to extremely shallow in a matter of seconds, that it's better to be away from shallow water in a storm ....

That's pretty basic stuff.

I'm really sure I haven't talked about boat design AT ALL.
Have never read your Blog... your posts tell me all I need to know...

But if you don't "know" what I'm saying about a Hunter 31' -- YOU'VE FORGOTTEN.
Well my Hunter was a Cherubini 37C... obviously you have the inferior design... she sailed like a dream... all the way to the UK... bare poles she did 15kts in a blow... hove to well and took a pounding well when laying a-hull for 4 days in a zero viz gale near the Azores...

Or you gave the bare poles more credit than they deserve. But when I have time, I'll calcuate the square footage of my mast and the square footage of my freeboard.

In a big blow the wind blows on everything, of course, but even then the Hunter has its own peculiarities. Run with the wind? You've got a big fat stern for both waves and wind to act on. It's NOT just the mast (and the rigging? in 15 mph?)

I reduced it some by getting rid of the stack pack, which made the boom much bigger. it was noticeable. I didn't do it for that reason, but I could see the effect when docking.

It isn't just the rigging. I refer people back to my comment about the big trawler that came in a couple of weeks ago when we were having such foul weather, with 20 mph winds from the north and a current. His dock ran east and west, and with both screws turning, he was moving to the south. It was the sailors (me, actually) who were able to tell him what to do.

He had to compensate for the windage on the side of his boat -- not his rig, because he didn't have one.

He did, and immediately was able to get his boat into the slip. No one on the dock argued with me -- they all said "Yeah -- do that!"
I suggest you give him the link to your Blog 'For Newer Sailors'
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Old 17-07-2013, 07:30   #21
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

Deeply immersed keels , especially immersed fore foots, tend to act to resist boat movement. modern lightly immersed boats are more subject to the effects of windage, but they counter that with better manoeuvrability, better dynamic control and less friction on the water. Its horses for courses

dave
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Old 17-07-2013, 07:38   #22
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

Almost afraid to jump into what seems to be turbulent waters here. This thread could be merged with the recent thread on the Lee Shore discussion that Raku references. She is making valid points that have been (somehow) neglected in previous discussions.
Raku is touching on what some here find inconvenient truths but what others may find so apparent that no further discussion is merited. As noted the rig is part of the over all top-hamper of a vessel but the freeboard is very significant also,and can be as more significant in the low weight," modern " vessels especially when maneuvering at slow speeds in a breeze . Of course none of the varied aspects of boat design act alone but in concert ;however in different wind and sea states different aspects of rig and hull become more critical to the tasks at hand and may either hinder or ease their execution; a point I was trying to make in the "Lee shore in a Gale" thread.

The first thing I like to do when taking out a new boat before getting sail up is to get the motor off and just drift while trying to maneuver in different headings so as to be aware of the boats proclivities . This could be done with just one of each sail in the wardrobe as well and will do wonders to ease the captains mind when in close quarters and the wind suddenly gusts up or the engine quits.

It's time to climb back out of these waters now ,I'm getting over my head.

Love you all...Mike
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Old 17-07-2013, 07:45   #23
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pirate Re: Hive to on every boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrohr View Post
Almost afraid to jump into what seems to be turbulent waters here. This thread could be merged with the recent thread on the Lee Shore discussion that Raku references. She is making valid points that have been (somehow) neglected in previous discussions.
Raku is touching on what some here find inconvenient truths but what others may find so apparent that no further discussion is merited. As noted the rig is part of the over all top-hamper of a vessel but the freeboard is very significant also,and can be as more significant in the low weight," modern " vessels especially when maneuvering at slow speeds in a breeze . Of course none of the varied aspects of boat design act alone but in concert ;however in different wind and sea states different aspects of rig and hull become more critical to the tasks at hand and may either hinder or ease their execution; a point I was trying to make in the "lee shore in a Gale" thread.

The first thing I like to do when taking out a new boat before getting sail up is to get the motor off and just drift while trying to maneuver in different headings so as to be aware of the boats proclivities . This could be done with just one of each sail in the wardrobe as well and will do wonders to ease the captains mind when in close quarters and the wind suddenly gusts up or the engine quits.

It's time to climb back out of these waters now ,I'm getting over my head.

Love you all...Mike
Yah Boo.... Chicken...
Not turbulent at all... well not here at least... must be a Florida squall...
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Old 17-07-2013, 07:58   #24
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
....... But when I have time, I'll calcuate the square footage of my mast and the square footage of my freeboard.

In a big blow the wind blows on everything, of course, but even then the Hunter has its own peculiarities. Run with the wind? You've got a big fat stern for both waves and wind to act on. It's NOT just the mast (and the rigging? in 15 mph?)..........
Fair enough comment but please remember to factor in the increase in wind speed as you get higher. I have forgotten the percentages but someone here will remember them . The wind speed at say spreader height is significantly higher than at deck level.
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Old 17-07-2013, 08:10   #25
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Firstly , its not suprising that some boats dont Hove too well, many modern designs with extended cabin tops, high freeboard, spray hoods, beefy mast etc will "sail" of these and cause instability. Often you can hove too in conditions where you can sail , but cant remain safety Hove to in more extreme circumstances.

All you can do is try various sail combinations, there is no "right" way , just what is right for your boat, that may mean no headsail etc.

As to selling the boat because of windage , WTF, thats excludes about 90% of modern designs !!!

Dave

Thank you. I knew I wasn't nuts about this.

As for selling the boat, my friend has had a lot of problems with it since buying it, ended up having to put a new engine in it (so did I), never really bonded with it.

He doesn't like the boat, he didn't pay that much for it, and he can afford to buy one he likes better.

I say, good for him.

To use an extreme example, suppose as a beginner you bought a Buccaneer, and then realized what a "fine sailing craft" she was (hiccup). Wouldn't you sell it if you could?

I think it's great, if you really dislike your boat, if you can sell it. I say more power to him.

I like mine. I've learned to handle it, and part of the things that aren't perfect contribute to some of things that are great, such as the larger living space. For me, it's a good compromise. For him, not a live-aboard, those things have no benefit. I get it.
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Old 17-07-2013, 08:16   #26
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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I suggest you give him the link to your Blog 'For Newer Sailors'

Boatman, if you read the blog, CLEARLY it is for beginners. It explains things like how the chart plotter shows your boat in relation to other things.

WHO ELSE MIGHT NEED TO HEAR THAT???

Who but a beginner doesn't know to look at the markers behind them as well as front of them, or doesn't know that the level of the sea level can change quite suddenly?

I've done a lot more sailing in my first six years than the great majorityof people, but that first year is close enough in my memory that I remember what it's like. On my blog, I thought that saying "newer" sailors was the nice way to say it.

Clearly it's not for you. I've only come across one highly experienced sailor who liked my blog, and that's my dear friend the retired naval architect (and a lot more) who took me under his wing when I was being led astray by stupid advice and got me on the fast track to sailing properly.

For instance, he was the person who said -- after I came in from an AWFUL day on the water with a reefing system that was both absurd and dangerous, leaving us without a very basic tool -- and put a GOOD reefing system on my boat for me.

He likes it. He agrees that newer sailors need to know those things because he teaches them to them all the time. He didn't know I was going to put it up but he thinks it fills a real need. So do the people who read it and have emailed me thanking me for the information.

If you want to write a blog, go for it. Write about the things you think are important. I won't even get on line and criticize it.
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Old 17-07-2013, 08:18   #27
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Deeply immersed keels , especially immersed fore foots, tend to act to resist boat movement. modern lightly immersed boats are more subject to the effects of windage, but they counter that with better manoeuvrability, better dynamic control and less friction on the water. Its horses for courses

dave

Exactly. Everything's a compromise.

If I were looking for a bluwater boat I would love to take someone like Boatman61 with me -- but I hope he'd bring along a shrink, because I'm not really ready for it.
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Old 17-07-2013, 08:26   #28
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pirate Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
If you want to write a blog, go for it. Write about the things you think are important. I won't even get on line and criticize it.
Raku... CF is as close to a Blog as I want to get.. and Sex, Drugs n Rock n Roll has been done to death already...
I don't teach...
I don't even advise... as such..
I just post what I do that's worked for me in certain senario's.. and occasionally play 'Devils Advocate'...
The rest of the time I'm just a PITA on a lot of ignore lists...
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Old 17-07-2013, 08:29   #29
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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Originally Posted by mrohr View Post
Almost afraid to jump into what seems to be turbulent waters here. This thread could be merged with the recent thread on the Lee Shore discussion that Raku references. She is making valid points that have been (somehow) neglected in previous discussions.
Raku is touching on what some here find inconvenient truths but what others may find so apparent that no further discussion is merited. As noted the rig is part of the over all top-hamper of a vessel but the freeboard is very significant also,and can be as more significant in the low weight," modern " vessels especially when maneuvering at slow speeds in a breeze . Of course none of the varied aspects of boat design act alone but in concert ;however in different wind and sea states different aspects of rig and hull become more critical to the tasks at hand and may either hinder or ease their execution; a point I was trying to make in the "Lee shore in a Gale" thread.

The first thing I like to do when taking out a new boat before getting sail up is to get the motor off and just drift while trying to maneuver in different headings so as to be aware of the boats proclivities . This could be done with just one of each sail in the wardrobe as well and will do wonders to ease the captains mind when in close quarters and the wind suddenly gusts up or the engine quits.

It's time to climb back out of these waters now ,I'm getting over my head.

Love you all...Mike

You made some very valid points.

Of course, I discovered my boat's proclivities *after* buying it, so I made a plan.

I was, rightfully so, nervous about bringing this much bigger boat into my slip in high wind. So I methodically practiced bringing it in and out by myself at 5 mph winds. Being retired and living on the boat made being this systematical easy (as mentioned, I have a science research background, so being systematical is what I like).

I practiced it multiple times. There was never any appreciable current in that marina, so I could really focus on one issue at a time.

Then I practiced it at 10. One day the wind picked up to 15, and I tested the boat and noted the effect of the wind (because of my concern with docking) ... and went to the club to their T-dock, when all I had to do was glide up one side. Didn't pull it off the first time, but the second time I got it, stopped the boat and was able to tie it off all by myself. Practiced that several times, waving off help when it came (they thought that was rude but I knew what I needed to learn).

I would still do that now if the wind was really up, even though it's out of my way. It was a good plan for learning it, because this marina can have a significant current. It really threw me five years ago (esp. when the outboard dropped the rod that gave me reverse and I didn't know it until trying to dock!)

Practicing docking to a point that some people would consider overkill has served me well, but I learned it from my music background: when a person forgets the words to a song, they haven't practiced it enough. Oh they may be able to sing it perfectly with their coach, but it's different when you're staring at 300 people (who you all are imagining are listening for that one little mistake that really only you and your vocal coach would spot). Overlearning really pays off.

Hmmm... THAT would be a good blog topic!
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Old 17-07-2013, 08:31   #30
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Re: Hive to on every boat...

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If I were looking for a bluwater boat I would love to take someone like Boatman61 with me -- but I hope he'd bring along a shrink, because I'm not really ready for it.
good idea, which of you however , needs the shrink!!

Dave
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