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Old 22-03-2016, 12:35   #16
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by wrwakefield View Post
Hi Scott,
You are miles ahead of the CQR anchors I had to depend upon when I made that run in the late 1980s, and they did the job most of the time...
I just gave away our bent 45lb CQR.

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Since you chose to use polyester for the rope component, and since it offers inadequate shock absorption in inclement conditions; if you haven't already I would add an adequately sized three-strand nylon snubber or bridle to your inventory, and deploy it every time you set the anchor.
Yes, it was always the plan to use snubbers at all times, both for shock absorption when the polyester was too short, most of the time, and for chafe. Snubbers are so much easier to replace than rode.
Quote:
[Practical Sailor published a good article in Mar-2016 about sizing snubbers, etc. for reference.]
This is interesting. I was assuming snubbers should be in the same strength category as the rest of the gear, meaning ¾ nylon for us. This article suggests ½. In the past I have used a dual ⅜ bridal with a longer ¾ for backup if the ⅜ failed.

Quote:
You also didn't list any storm tackle [and perhaps you consider that independently from your ground tackle. e.g., drogue(s), sea anchor, etc.] I mention this because I lump everything for slowing or holding the vessel together into one inventory. [Here is our inventory for reference in case it is of interest.]
We haven't organized our at sea storm gear. My plan was to get a sea anchor and polyester (with snubbers!) when being hove to was no longer tenable.
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Old 22-03-2016, 12:43   #17
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
What size chain are you using? From the break load of 16k, I can only guess at 3/8" G40?
Yes! Well, 10mm. Maggi.
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Old 22-03-2016, 12:49   #18
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I sail in an areas with huge tides (up to 14 meters range), which requires me to anchor in some places where the depth will be very great at high tide.
Holy crap. That is unreal.
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Old 22-03-2016, 13:03   #19
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by ScottMeilicke View Post
Current plan:
Primary: Rocna, 250' chain, cut100' of polyester
Secondary: Bruce, 40' chain, remaining 350' polyester
Tertiary: buy a fortress fx-37, 40' chain, buy "some rope"
Stern: 20 lb danforth, 300' nylon 12 strand.
Chop up the 200' 3 strand for use as snubbers

My over thinking dilemma is:
If I'm in a deep anchorage and use the Rocna, 250' chain and 350' polyester, and then have to ditch it all for whatever reason, I have precious little left of long rode for anything much over 25' of depth (5:1 scope).

Do I:
Buy another 300' or so of polyester for the tertiary anchor?
Buy 300' of nylon? Not excited about nylon (weakens as it stretches due to heat, water)
Cut the 450 polyester into 300 and 150 to mitigate the loss of line?
Stop over thinking and go sailing?

Thanks for any advice.





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I think your plan is just fine as is, but if I were to quibble, I might opt to go for a slightly bigger Fortress when you make that purchase. At 32#, the FX55 will still be light enough to easily load into your dinghy for kedging and it won't cost too much (about $200) more. Since you already have a Bruce and a Rocna, I assume that you have 2 bow rollers and want to keep 2 anchors ready to go? Also, no big hurry but I'd look for an opportunity to unload the Bruce and upgrade that to something a little better. (I'm in the same situation.) A review of Panope's current anchoring thread should give you some ideas about good options.

A few posters earlier advised throwing away both of your Danforths but I don't see what's to be gained by that other than making a dramatic statement. They're obviously not what you'll use in storm conditions but it's not like they take up a lot of room or are hard to store aboard and they can come in handy at times. According to your plan above, you don't include your second Danforth anyway. But I think having your 20lb Danforth ready to go at your stern is a good idea. A 55 lb Fortress is too big to conveniently store assembled and above deck but the 20lb Danforth is just about right to have quickly available to keep your stern from swinging in moderate conditions or to better align you with the wind/current for a more comfortable nights sleep when they are at odds with each other, and since it's all ready to go, you can use it initially as a kedge until you get your big Fortress assembled and into service. Also, it'll make a handy lunch hook when you don't want to screw around with the windlass and chain and cleaning up the mess on deck. I'd also keep the little Danforth for now. It would be perfect to combine with a block and small float and some long, thin rope for an outhaul to make a temporary mooring just off a beach or rocky landing spot for your dinghy, should the need arise.

One other slight adjustment might be to list your primary Rocna for sale and if you can get a decent price for it, upgrade to a bigger Rocna or Spade to use as primary. At 73lb, your Rocna is adequate, but the next size up would be even MORE adequate, bigger IS better when it comes to primary anchors because it's probably also going to be your storm anchor. I belong to the school of putting the biggest anchor that will fit in your bow roller to be used as your primary anchor. So, depending on your budget and room on your bow rollers, my first choice would be to replace your Bruce with your 73# Rocna and get something a little bigger (I'm partial to a big SPADE but Rocna is great too.) as your best bower, and if you don't want to spend quite as much, then keep your Rocna primary anchor where it is but look to upgrade the Bruce when/if the chance presents itself.

Fatty Goodlander, who writes for Cruising World and has about as many sea miles under his keel as every one of us posting on this thread put together, has a sailboat just like yours and has written a book (Creative Anchoring) about anchoring, including what he recommends and why. Coincidentally, his best bower is also a Rocna, and his anchoring book includes a good discussion about anchoring in very deep water, something you seem to be interested in. His books are always entertaining and he makes a lot of useful points as well. Enjoy!
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Old 22-03-2016, 13:16   #20
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I think your plan is just fine as is, but if I were to quibble, I might opt to go for a slightly bigger Fortress when you make that purchase. At 32#, the FX55 will still be light enough to easily load into your dinghy for kedging and it won't cost too much (about $200) more. Since you already have a Bruce and a Rocna, I assume that you have 2 bow rollers and want to keep 2 anchors ready to go? Also, no big hurry but I'd look for an opportunity to unload the Bruce and upgrade that to something a little better. (I'm in the same situation.) A review of Panope's current anchoring thread should give you some ideas about good options.

A few posters earlier advised throwing away both of your Danforths but I don't see what's to be gained by that other than making a dramatic statement. They're obviously not what you'll use in storm conditions but it's not like they take up a lot of room or are hard to store aboard and they can come in handy at times. According to your plan above, you don't include your second Danforth anyway. But I think having your 20lb Danforth ready to go at your stern is a good idea. A 55 lb Fortress is too big to conveniently store assembled and above deck but the 20lb Danforth is just about right to have quickly available to keep your stern from swinging in moderate conditions or to better align you with the wind/current for a more comfortable nights sleep when they are at odds with each other, and since it's all ready to go, you can use it initially as a kedge until you get your big Fortress assembled and into service. Also, it'll make a handy lunch hook when you don't want to screw around with the windlass and chain and cleaning up the mess on deck. I'd also keep the little Danforth for now. It would be perfect to combine with a block and small float and some long, thin rope for an outhaul to make a temporary mooring just off a beach or rocky landing spot for your dinghy, should the need arise.

One other slight adjustment might be to list your primary Rocna for sale and if you can get a decent price for it, upgrade to a bigger Rocna or Spade to use as primary. At 73lb, your Rocna is adequate, but the next size up would be even MORE adequate, bigger IS better when it comes to primary anchors because it's probably also going to be your storm anchor. I belong to the school of putting the biggest anchor that will fit in your bow roller to be used as your primary anchor. So, depending on your budget and room on your bow rollers, my first choice would be to replace your Bruce with your 73# Rocna and get something a little bigger (I'm partial to a big SPADE but Rocna is great too.) as your best bower, and if you don't want to spend quite as much, then keep your Rocna primary anchor where it is but look to upgrade the Bruce when/if the chance presents itself.

Fatty Goodlander, who writes for Cruising World and has about as many sea miles under his keel as every one of us posting on this thread put together, has a sailboat just like yours and has written a book (Creative Anchoring) about anchoring, including what he recommends and why. Coincidentally, his best bower is also a Rocna, and his anchoring book includes a good discussion about anchoring in very deep water, something you seem to be interested in. His books are always entertaining and he makes a lot of useful points as well. Enjoy!
Our broker thought the Rocna 33 wouldn't fit on our bow. When I saw it there, I wished I had bought the 40. I am keeping my eyes peeled for a possible trade in the future.

I have thought about a spade or mantus in place of the bruce. The bruce is currently at the mast, but it would be nice to have another bower anchor that I can disassemble and keep below.

Regarding two anchors at the bow, no I just want one. I'd like to avoid too much weight at the bow. I will have a stern anchor ready to drop at a moments notice. If we are in something stinky, I will prepare a backup anchor for the bow, ready to deploy if needed.

Fatty is our hero. I've read his anchoring book twice. I just get twisted around the axel on this stuff at times, and needed all of you to break me free.
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Old 22-03-2016, 13:41   #21
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

My issue with having lots of small anchors onboard is as follows...

1) they never get used. In 20 years of cruising we used our #3-5 anchors exactly zero times. By the time the boat was destroyed by Katrina I think they were buried in the lazarette, or tossed over board somewhere, or traded for a lobster. I really don't know. The big primary (CQR) was used almost all the time, the #2 (a big Fortress on the roller) was used maybe once a year.

2) the storage space middle sized anchors take up is significant, and better specced for almost anything else. They also tend to grab onto things and hook line, put holes in clothes, and tangle.

3) if you are going to set a small kedge you are going to do it from the dingy anyway. Just use the massively oversized dingy anchor (did I mention I like oversized anchors yet) as a ledge for the big boat. That 20lb danforth looks like a canidate for the dingy anchor to me btw.


For what it's worth. I grew up on a cruising boat that lived at anchor about 330 days a year. In that time we never came close to loosing the primary. In 30 years of sailing the closest I have come to loosing an anchor was when we dropped the hook in a lake created by the TVA and got the CQR trapped in the root ball of a large oak tree. It took a chainsaw to release it but didnt actually loose the anchor.

Instead of worrying about carrying a backup to the primary I would carry SCUBA gear (we dove anyway) and plan to manually retrieve a lost tangled anchor. I have done this once or twice but even this is rare in my experience.
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Old 22-03-2016, 14:36   #22
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by ScottMeilicke View Post
Thanks for all of the great responses, they are very appreciated.

I worry about losing my primary. But really, how many people do you know that have lost theirs?
I've lost one. Actually cut it loss. Believe I caught a cable?
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Old 22-03-2016, 14:49   #23
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

I'll stand by keeping the Danforths. We have a 20 lb. high tensile Danforth that has proved itself useful over the years in the South Pacific. Mostly it has been used as a stern anchor when anchoring bow and stern in crowded anchorages where the other boats were also anchored that way, and we've used it to limit swing.

I think Dockhead and Jedi make good points, but not everybody wants to spend quite that much, and if what you have already will work okay, why not use it?

Although not a hurricane, we once had to supplement our 27 kilo Manson Supreme with the little Danforth, and it held through 60 knots in poorish holding, didn't budge after adding it. The anchorage was quite crowded, and there was nowhere better to go. In that case, the strong winds lasted only one day.

Scott asked if anyone had "lost" their primary anchor. It's not exactly lost, we know where it is, within 70 feet, but the chain was caught on some type of underwater fouling (we suspect a bunch of sunken trees), in an area where the water is tannin rich (read impenetrably dark), and flowing about 1 knot; Jim decided not good conditions for diving to recover it.

We have had to cut our chain and left our primary anchor behind, only this once, on the 14th of March this year. The only time we've "lost" the anchor, too, in 28 yrs. of cruising. Have had to cut the chain a few times, though. It is one thing you risk, exploring out of the way places. For all these years, we probably anchor out on the order of 320 days per year. There are many opportunities for mishaps; we've had few.

Ann
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Old 22-03-2016, 14:54   #24
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

Unless you are limited by locker size, I would use more line on the primary. In emergency, it is way easier just to add scope rather than fumble around with trying to extend the existing kit.

Otherwise I think you have all it takes. Plenty of options and all good.

Have fun anchoring!
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Old 23-03-2016, 11:34   #25
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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I've lost one. Actually cut it loss. Believe I caught a cable?
I've caught cables.

But never lost the anchor.

In one (or two) cases I was able to lift the cable to the surface (with great effort), get another line around it, and lower the anchor away and out.

In another case where the cable was too heavy, I made a bowline in a piece of rope, tied a diving weight to it, and ran it down the chain. I put crew in the dinghy to hold the chain where it was (with a fender at the end of it), then maneuvered the around to 180 degrees from where the boat was when we got stuck.

Worked the loop down onto the anchor, then pulled back hard on it with an electric sheet winch.

And got it out that way.

Obviously this was in calm weather. In other conditions YMMV.
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Old 23-03-2016, 12:35   #26
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by ScottMeilicke View Post
Thanks for all of the great responses, they are very appreciated.

I worry about losing my primary. But really, how many people do you know that have lost theirs?
Hi Scott,

I have lost one anchor, had to temporarily abandon one [cut and run...] and found one [see PS, below] in just over 3 decades. Not bad, but not ideal either...

The time I lost the main bower in a remote area [weeks away from a location to order a replacement] Murphy prevailed: I suffered grounding and prop damage in a storm a couple of weeks later because the [properly sized] secondary anchors weren't up to the task... [An extreme situation in a remote area I won't bore you with... The lost bower may not have held by itself either...]

For me, the tough lesson learned from these two events was to always have at least one secondary anchor that matches the main bower in holding capacity [but it doesn't have to be the same type of anchor...] and is ready to deploy instantly in the case of a cut and run situation...

Prior to these experiences, I always felt comfortable with a smaller back-up anchor to get me by temporarily... [Like those undersized (toy) spare tires on vehicles: they may not last the distance to the next tire shop if you are in the boondocks...]

Those events occurred on boat #3. [My well travelled Valiant Esprit 37.] All boats since then have always had a second bower ready to deploy [and like carrying an umbrella, I have yet to need it in an extreme circumstance...]

Because we enjoy cruising in areas where obtaining replacements is not quick or easy, our current boat carries 5 anchors: [2 ready to deploy bowers, 2 Fortress kedges (1 on stern rail, 1 stowed), and a stowed heavy Fisherman] We're in good shape if we loose or have to [hopefully temporarily] abandon a bower, and can cover most other contingencies with the rest.

I'm not suggesting this approach is ideal or warranted for everyone; I just wanted to explain how I arrived at this strategy for ground tackle.

I carry extra, full size spare tires when I travel roads like the AlCan highway too... [Please don't ask why...]

Safe anchoring everyone!

Cheers!

Bill

PS: In afterthought, I guess I am down to a net loss of zero anchors... Years ago I sat out a 3 day blow [alone- no other boats] hiding from the waves behind the Coronado Islands on the Pacific side of Mexico. While retrieving my double bow anchors, one anchor was heavier than when it was deployed; it had snagged an anchor chain. Since I was the only boat, it must have been lost some days or weeks before the storm I was in as it was not yet barnacle encrusted or rusted. I pulled up 400 feet of 3/8 inch BBB chain with a nice sized high-tensile Danforth anchor attached to it. Perhaps this helped keep me from dragging...
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Old 23-03-2016, 18:16   #27
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

Why worry about anchor kit loss?

One boat I know lost her anchor ended up on the rocks high and dry two dead three ended on the beach and got rescued. They anchored where they should not have. Another one ended on the rocks too, no life loss, these guys had a CQR the size of our Mustad tuna hooks. Another one ended on the rock and got damaged - again, skipper's fault - too small an anchor and poor choice of an anchorage. Some like to add offense to injury.

It does not matter how many boats lost their anchors before me. All that matters is what I can do to avoid their (if any) errors.

Good bottom, good skills, good gear eliminate some of the risk. The remaining portion is luck (for me) or fate (for the believer).

We nearly lost our kit in the Northern Territory when it got locked under (???) a reef overnight. Our options were to abandon or to force it. We forced it and so we retrieved with only a minor dent in the hook and some scratches on the gunwale. I fixed the scratches so that I can see them every time we anchor now. Wounds of well lived life, proof of existence.

Whenever we anchor in an iffy way, I try to have our second anchor ready to deploy immediately. And at times we anchor to two hooks too - off course, only when there is no risk of tangling with our neighbours.

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Old 24-03-2016, 03:34   #28
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

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Originally Posted by ScottMeilicke View Post
I just gave away our bent 45lb CQR.


Yes, it was always the plan to use snubbers at all times, both for shock absorption when the polyester was too short, most of the time, and for chafe. Snubbers are so much easier to replace than rode.

Quote:
Since you chose to use polyester for the rope component, and since it offers inadequate shock absorption in inclement conditions; if you haven't already I would add an adequately sized three-strand nylon snubber or bridle to your inventory, and deploy it every time you set the anchor.

This is interesting. I was assuming snubbers should be in the same strength category as the rest of the gear, meaning ¾ nylon for us. This article suggests ½. In the past I have used a dual ⅜ bridal with a longer ¾ for backup if the ⅜ failed.


We haven't organized our at sea storm gear. My plan was to get a sea anchor and polyester (with snubbers!) when being hove to was no longer tenable.
Couple of comments:

1. Polyester rope does actually have a certain elasticity. Less than nylon, but the longer the rode, the more elastic it is. I find that with a couple hundred feet out, a snubber is not really necessary. Note also that the construction of the rope has a big influence on how elastic it is -- plaited rope (octoplait, brait, etc.) is better.

2. Concerning the strength of the snubber -- it cannot be as strong as the rest of the rode without being massively long, probably longer than the amount of rode you want to have out. Besides that, nylon snubbers, as they do their work, are subject to internal heating and all the nylon failure modes. So snubbers are used as a sacrificial part of the anchoring system which are much less strong than the rode, and a risk of breaking is accepted. This is why you must belay the chain in another way (chain lock or strong strop), and don't use the snubber to secure the chain to the boat. To combine this function with absorbing shock means it will be either far too weak or will not absorb much shock.
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Old 24-03-2016, 04:39   #29
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

Ive used a smaller bruce like yours on a heavy steel 42 foot ketch as a second anchor set on short scope in a Y configuration to reduce yawing. Rigged like this the small bruce earned its keep on that boat, but she had an undersized CQR copy as a main that needed all the help it could get. The Bruces very low ultimate holding wasnt a big issue in this case. Its quick setting at reduced scope was useful in this role.

But its an awkward thing to carry around and if you aren't into playing with anchors its getting a bit small just to keep around as a replacement main anchor just in case.

There is are a lot of crappy danforth copies out there. If you've got a good one great. If not the they possibly aren't worth keeping either.
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Old 24-03-2016, 05:00   #30
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Re: Help me flesh out my ground tackle

Ah... the Bruce... 'as used on oilrigs in the North Sea'....
Oilrigs and drill ships ( ignoring DP here) lie to not one, not two, but eight anchors ( four up the front..four down the back )... all under static load. no yaw.. no wandering around and pulling from this side and that.
Most amazing bit of anchoring advertising BS in the last 100 years or so... and that includes Rocna

Moving right along... the deeper the water the less scope you need and the less need for weight except down near the anchor. Cray boats anchoring out near the 100 fathom line off the west coast of Tasmania lie to pot line....

And in those cases you don't need a snubber but it is still good to take all load off the capstan.
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