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Old 09-09-2009, 14:16   #46
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Looked at the video of them hauling it in- couldn't do it under load. Can you rig a trip line to these? Any notes on how it would affect performance?
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Old 09-09-2009, 14:28   #47
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I'm not worried about the load on the drouge, I'm worried about the load on the steering gear with overtaking waves.

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I think you need to do more research. The drogue will not load up the steering gear, in fact it is more likely to reduce the loading on it. The jordan series drogue website shows video of how it works in tank tests and reality. I suggest you look at those videos. I also suggest you read the USCG report.
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Old 09-09-2009, 21:00   #48
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I respect your experience, Dave, but the Coast Guard report addresses each of your points, with objective tests. In my mind, if a vessel has room for only one system, I see greater advantage in the series drogue.

I've looked for a situation where the chute, with its difficulties, is superior to the series drogue and can imagine only one, where (as in the grand banks) water depth and bottom structure could allow the series drogue's anchor to catch and create an overwhelming shock load to the system.

Please point out what I am missing here.
Exit Only is a small catamaran by present standards at 39 feet and 5 inches length with 21 feet of beam. In spite of our small size, I carried two eighteen foot diameter parachutes from para-anchor international, one series drogue with 120 cones, and a large gale rider drogue. I also constructed the Abbott drogue detailed on our website.

During our circumnavigation I used one 18 foot diameter parachute in a winter storm 300 miles north of New Zealand, and I used the Abbott drogue in a storm in the Atlantic heading south to the Canary Islands. I was never in conditions that required the use of a Series Drogue.

The stuff I used in those storms worked extremely well on my boat, but may not have worked as well on boats of other design and size. I know my boat and my equipment, and I look at the character of the storm and the amount of sea room available, and then I pick from one of the four options I have on board.

If I have limited sea room, I choose the parachute to hold position and to assume a defensive posture.

If a storm is moving fast and will pass by in less than 24 hours, I may hold position with a parachute to let the storm pass by as that is the quickest way out of my predicament. Running in those conditons would only prolong the misery.

If I am in the dangerous semicircle of a storm, I would never run with a drogue because going downwind sucks me into the center and toward the front side of the storm which is a bad idea. In would rather hold position with a parachute or heave to if I was in the dangerous semicircle.

If I am in the non-dangerous semicircle of a storm, I would feel more comfortable running downwind because at least I would be heading more toward the backside of a storm rather than the front side, and I would be heading in the oppsite direction of the forward storm movement.

If the seas are not breaking, I would consider the Abbott drogue or the Large Gale Rider drogue. When the seas start breaking, I would move to a drag device that was strong enough to control the boat in breaking seas.

In severe breaking seas, I would rather have my bows into the seas on a catamaran of my design. I have chafe free sea anchor chainplates that will never pull out, and on my boat my greatest chance for survival would be bows into breaking seas. On boats of other designs with flat large salon windows, having the bows into the seas might be a bad idea.

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I built my own series drogue. It took a lot of time to make it, but it's not that hard or expensive to construct. My parachutes were purchased new as was my large gale rider drogue. I also carried the gale rider as a back up man overboard recovery tool. It has a very big opening and is made of heavy webbing like a large cargo net. I can attach it to my extra long spinnaker halyard and drop it down into the water and can hoist a severely injured crew member back on board inside the gale rider drogue.

I carried two parachutes because in a storm at sea in the shipping lanes, it's possible that I would need to abandon the chute if it looked like I was going to be run down by a ship, or if the chute was run down by a ship.

The point I am making is this. There is no single answer or solution that applies to all storms at sea. It depends on your boat design, the character of the storm, the sea room, and the storm gear that you carry on board. I am a small catamaran that has plenty of options when sailing offshore. That's my approach. It may be overkill, but I have seen enough disasters offshore to know that on my boat, I want lots of different options available. I may be a small yacht, but I have big options.

I would never go to sea and limit myself to a single option.
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Old 09-09-2009, 21:45   #49
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Please don't get me wrong here. I'm not taking issue with the value of a drogue or Mr Jordan's design. I have simply asked a question that is based on my personal "first response" to the marketing of the Jordan series drogue. What I saw is a Coast Guard evaluation that:
1) Does nothing to evaluate the full array of storm tactics available to today's sailor,
2) Does not even evaluate other drogue configurations, and,
3) Was the product of a paid consultancy with the designer of the only tested drogue.

I am simply saying that the inclusion of the Coast Guard test has the strong potential of being perceived as self-serving (as it did for me). I certainly appreciate the work that Mr Jordan has done to bring a product to market that can have a positive impact on sailing safety, but I wanted to express my first reaction to a marketing strategy that didn't settle well.
I understand what you are saying and it has some logic. The basis of your premise is the Coast Guard is either unethical, or unable or inept to properly evaluate data they receive. Except:

I have a good friend that is a graduate of the UsCoast Guard Academy. His degree is in Marine Engineering, as are a lot of their graduates.

The Coast Guard has an army (pardon the pun) of marine egineers that have the knowledge and skill to take data and evaluate it. They also have the integrity to throw out any data that is found to be somehow in error. When evaluating data, any outlyer, or data that does not fit the mathematical computer models is quickly re-evaluated. I have total faith in their findings on many issues. Some I don't necessarily agree with or understand, but then physics and hydraulic engineering were never my strong points in school.
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Old 09-09-2009, 22:13   #50
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One study is never done in isolation: all the supervisors of trials will have read many of the trials of other systems. The coast guard as a whole has seen the results of using different drogues and parachutes in real life: though there is a bias towards seeing disasters rather than successes in their rescue calls.
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Old 09-09-2009, 22:50   #51
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I'm not worried about the load on the drouge, I'm worried about the load on the steering gear with overtaking waves.
Again you are missing the point. in an overtaking wave, the only impetus put on the boat by the wave is a vertical up and down. Movement fwd and aft is a function of gravity and the slope of the wave. The chain on the end of the series drogue is the key feature. It is there to allow some movement forward, because unless there is a lot of stress on the drogue, the chain takes a significant number of the drogues out of actiion by dragging the back end of the drogue down. Thus when the boat is hit by a breaking waveThe boat is able to accelerate forward for a while by a combination of the elasticity of the bridle/first connecting rope, and the fact that not to many of the drogues are actually working. As the boat accelerates, more and more of the drogues come into play as the chain is straightened out. Thus the initial impact of the breaking wave is considerably reduced.

It is the parachute that allows the boat to move astern, and is why having too small a parachute is a real danger.
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Old 10-09-2009, 04:56   #52
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Talbot, you have to understand that we sail vastly different boat. What works for a 30 foot cat is not neccasarily going to work for 61 foot, 65,000 lb mono with a 93 foot spar. I think Maxingouts parachute is great for a multi or a light mono but it not something we are ever going to use.

Again my concern is slowing the boat and being overtaken by a wave moving at 20 m/s and having that wave damage the steering gear. We are comfortable running off without towing anything, the boat is easy to drive and tracks very well. If that gets too uncomfortable or dangerouse we will cycle back into fore reaching and pick our way through breakers.

One size does not fit all.

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Again you are missing the point. in an overtaking wave, the only impetus put on the boat by the wave is a vertical up and down. Movement fwd and aft is a function of gravity and the slope of the wave. The chain on the end of the series drogue is the key feature. It is there to allow some movement forward, because unless there is a lot of stress on the drogue, the chain takes a significant number of the drogues out of actiion by dragging the back end of the drogue down. Thus when the boat is hit by a breaking waveThe boat is able to accelerate forward for a while by a combination of the elasticity of the bridle/first connecting rope, and the fact that not to many of the drogues are actually working. As the boat accelerates, more and more of the drogues come into play as the chain is straightened out. Thus the initial impact of the breaking wave is considerably reduced.

It is the parachute that allows the boat to move astern, and is why having too small a parachute is a real danger.
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:52   #53
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Parachutes are designed for trawlers and have sizes suitable for up to 150ft vessels with a displacement up to 300,000 lbs.

The series drogue is listed with displacement up to 50,000 lb

If you cut 6 ft of your stern you should be all right
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Old 10-09-2009, 06:05   #54
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Ace Sailmakers are now constructing series drogues for trawlers well above your displacement.

The stress on the rudder will be less than moving astern. The real problem is rudder stall, and this is the whole point of the series drogue. It is designed to hold the vessel in a straight line during that period of rudder stall in exactly the same way as you would use a couple of small drogues as an emergency rudder.

This is a good alternative to a broach!
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Old 10-09-2009, 07:04   #55
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And so is cycling back to fore reaching. As an owner of a larger boat this is the option we feel is best and safest for our gear.

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This is a good alternative to a broach!
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