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Old 17-02-2014, 18:02   #46
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Book learning isn't really useful in big storms, seamanship is
If you say so.

I'd take my experience over a book, but I'll take the Pardeys over anything I read on the internet. So until I get that experience, (got some today), I'll stick with them.

What's particularly impressive is when you experts all try to prove a negative.
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Old 17-02-2014, 18:25   #47
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

Heaving to for lunch or rest is one thing, but actually heaving to in large steep seas and winds cannot be done in anything but a boat with a full, non cutaway keel. It's simple physics, without a large amount of underwater keel forward, a huge wave pushes the bow down every time it passes and the boat sails down (after rolling on it's beam ends). I have experienced this in modern long fin/ skeg hung rudder type boats that are popular for cruising. Even with the keel forward, the Pardey's go thru a long explanation of how to attempt to keep the bow up with bridles parachutes etc.
I know some will disagree with this, but I wont change my opinion until I see the video footage/gps.
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Old 17-02-2014, 19:29   #48
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Book learning isn't really useful in big storms, seamanship is
Book learning is useful in almost all situations. You will learn more from books that you will in 100 years of doing. That is why most "experts" need to go to college.

Of course both book learning AND experience is the best.
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Old 17-02-2014, 22:35   #49
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
If you say so.

I'd take my experience over a book, but I'll take the Pardeys over anything I read on the internet. So until I get that experience, (got some today), I'll stick with them.

What's particularly impressive is when you experts all try to prove a negative.
What the Pardeys do and don't do is all very well, I've read all their books. What important is o understand why they did what they did and how it worked or them.

But to say , things like you did , that boats that can't hove to are myths, shows up your ( self confessed) lack of experience. The reality, is that implementing some of these techniques, doesn't always work or work well enough. Certain vessels in certain situations react very differently to " the way the book says" .

For example the Pardeys tend to emphasise heaving to with a sea anchor. Most modern vessels don't even have a Samson post forward these days. Where do you intend to connect it to ( as one example )

Dave
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Old 17-02-2014, 22:43   #50
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Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
Book learning is useful in almost all situations. You will learn more from books that you will in 100 years of doing. That is why most "experts" need to go to college.

Of course both book learning AND experience is the best.
As a person with close to 1000 books in my marine library, I'm hardly in a position to disagree, what I meant by book learning is that in these situations merely applying " received " wisdom can be dangerous. I see it all the time, even in this thread, people looking to apply , stock answers , to specific situations. People saying, I,ll follow Larry Pardeys advice, without any reference to the type of boat or the specific situation they find themselves in.

Take " Jammer Six's" comments , why not say " I,ll follow Steve Dashews" advice as opposed to Pardeys , why not say , " I'll follow xxxx or yyyy" , I mean I have at least 6 boats on storm tactics , some often contradictory , all written by well known authors. This is the danger of book learning, not the reading more the applying

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Old 17-02-2014, 22:44   #51
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Heaving to for lunch or rest is one thing, but actually heaving to in large steep seas and winds cannot be done in anything but a boat with a full, non cutaway keel. It's simple physics, without a large amount of underwater keel forward, a huge wave pushes the bow down every time it passes and the boat sails down (after rolling on it's beam ends). I have experienced this in modern long fin/ skeg hung rudder type boats that are popular for cruising. Even with the keel forward, the Pardey's go thru a long explanation of how to attempt to keep the bow up with bridles parachutes etc.
I know some will disagree with this, but I wont change my opinion until I see the video footage/gps.
+1. Absolutely agree
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Old 17-02-2014, 22:53   #52
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is the danger of book learning, not the reading more the applying
It pleases me to read that on the internet.

"Showing up" my lack of experience isn't much of an accomplishment, and it might be simpler to just ask me-- I'll tell you.

The Pardeys make perfect sense to me. This, on the other hand, is the internet.

When you say "such-and-such a boat can't/won't/will never heave to", I read "I don't know how to heave to on this type of boat."

No harm, no foul there. I'd just go back to the Pardeys, anyway, if I needed to heave to on that type of boat.
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Old 17-02-2014, 23:41   #53
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Heaving to for lunch or rest is one thing, but actually heaving to in large steep seas and winds cannot be done in anything but a boat with a full, non cutaway keel. It's simple physics, without a large amount of underwater keel forward, a huge wave pushes the bow down every time it passes and the boat sails down (after rolling on it's beam ends). I have experienced this in modern long fin/ skeg hung rudder type boats that are popular for cruising. Even with the keel forward, the Pardey's go thru a long explanation of how to attempt to keep the bow up with bridles parachutes etc.
I know some will disagree with this, but I wont change my opinion until I see the video footage/gps.
(my emphasis for purposes of discussion)

Hmm - I've been hove-to three times in the Southern Ocean on a racing yacht with a deep fin keel and spade rudder. The first two times, both under storm trysail only, the manoeuvre worked very well

... and this technique is reputed to do so reliably with fin keels, particularly but not exclusively on big boats -perhaps not online, but (according to the skipper, who was as good as they get) on the rare occasions when seamen at this level can be persuaded to discuss these things.

The aft centre of effort helps counteract the bow being driven down. Not much wind (< 50 knots) but disorganised seas

The third time was with a tall strip of headsail (set on the headstay) only, no trisail or main. That was in well formed, "Very High" seas
(a technical term for sea-state, two steps above "Very Rough" .... the only one above it is "Phenomenal").
However the seas were not breaking forwards any time I looked at them, just spilling, generally off the backs more than the fronts.

This time there was an ample sufficiency of breeze, and yet again the manoeuvre worked surprisingly well.
Which was just as well because I was alone on deck, and the boat was a bit of a handful for one. (On this occasion is was a former racing yacht, converted for spartan/expedition cruising)

I think what probably helped was that this boat had a very generous spade rudder in terms of depth and efficiency. Being very easily driven, the boat made consistent headway, with this scrap of sail sheeted aback at the clew, but drawing all the way up the very long luff, sufficient for the rudder to keep the bow up.

Nowhere near the 'eye of' the wind of course, but consistently well above the dangerous "beam-on" position.
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Old 17-02-2014, 23:52   #54
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

Like others I'm sure I have hove- to with a fin keel boat but it wasn't really hove-to in that the boat was stopped and sliding slowly sideways producing a slick that is supposed to help settle breaking seas, in fact we were fore reaching very slowly at about a knot+ I have fooled around trying different things and I have never been able to stop a fin keel boat in a hove-to state, I've always fore reached. Have any of you been able to actually stop a fin keel boat from fore reaching when hove-to??
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Old 17-02-2014, 23:54   #55
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
It pleases me to read that on the internet.

"Showing up" my lack of experience isn't much of an accomplishment, and it might be simpler to just ask me-- I'll tell you.

The Pardeys make perfect sense to me. This, on the other hand, is the internet.

When you say "such-and-such a boat can't/won't/will never heave to", I read "I don't know how to heave to on this type of boat."

No harm, no foul there. I'd just go back to the Pardeys, anyway, if I needed to heave to on that type of boat.
I think you miss understand. Any boat can be made to heave to. ( with a degree of fore reaching ).

But that's completely different from saying heaving to in a survival storm is a useful technique in a modern fin keeled boat. Personally from experience I'd say forereaching, often with engine assit works quite well , but that's just my experience

Heaving to in a storm is often presented as some means of " escape" , ie heave to , go be.ow and sit the storm out. Nothing could be further from the truth. My specific experience is that once the sea get confused or breaking, few modern fin keelers will stay hove to. Most will get forced through the tack and start sailing.

Modern boats need active techniques IMHO.

In this I prefer to be aligned with the Dashews, who sail more modern designs.

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Old 18-02-2014, 00:08   #56
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

FWIW,

The OP was sort of looking for practical clues, so here's one:

If you have perforated toe rail, then creative use of snatch block may allow you to heave to better than before. We had found it necessary to place a snatch block very far forward to alllow the storm jib to back adequately to stop us on our previous boat.

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Old 18-02-2014, 00:25   #57
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

True, most boats don't have a Sampson post, but every boat i've ever seen has an anchor cleat. It should be through bolted, not screwed, and should be sufficient for connecting a para anchor. Yes, I use a running block to a primary winch as well. Yes, my boat is a fin keel, spade rudder, and heaves to with the assistance of a parachute pretty well. In my experience the loads on the anchor cleat are about what they are when actually anchored. The chances of you having to do this in a normal circumnavigation are not great, unless it you go via the great capes. The fact is, there are not many who have done it, so you won't get many responses based on actual experience. By that I mean sustained wind speed of over about 50 knots for more than 24 hours. The pardy method works. I've tried it.

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Old 18-02-2014, 01:26   #58
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Be careful about sticking to rules and systems. such as start close hauled and tack the jib, my boat heaves to easily and effectively, and does its best without the Headsail. Not having a go at any poster here. just reinforcing comments about each boat being different.

As for heaving to in extreme conditions, my preference is to run away with a series drouge.
You allude to a good point there Factor, there is very little written about heaving too in a cat. Most books like the Pardys and Al Lucas etc really refer to traditional full keel boats and there is occasional mention of techniques to be used with fin keels. Although you mention your own techniques, what have you heard about other cat sailors doing?
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Old 18-02-2014, 07:50   #59
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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You allude to a good point there Factor, there is very little written about heaving too in a cat. Most books like the Pardys and Al Lucas etc really refer to traditional full keel boats and there is occasional mention of techniques to be used with fin keels. Although you mention your own techniques, what have you heard about other cat sailors doing?
I'd like to hear something about that too.
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Old 01-03-2014, 17:09   #60
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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i've read the storm tactics book by the Pardy's, (good reading), And other descriptions of heaving to as well as the forum responses. I haven't seen an mention of heaving to in a ketch or other two masted boat. Anyone have a technique for those boats? I don't plan to be offshore but it would be a nice way ,as suggested, to wait for dawn or a favorable tide before entering an inlet or anchorage.
I have an old (1983) Nauticat 36' ketch rig and in under 20 knots I can use just the jib and or jib and main. With much more wind the main comes down and the mizzen goes up (maybe only part way) for balance.
My boat is a little tricky to balance since she is a motor sailer and has a lot of windage with the pilothouse, but once she is balanced she sits in the water very calm and nice.

Al, S/V Finlandia
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