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Old 12-02-2014, 09:43   #31
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by Hoofsmit View Post
and in fact we've got a F12 blowing right now in the Western Approaches

Yep ......tell me about it ! Tis a bit breezey
And if the water keeps rising, you'll be able to use the M1 as a canal
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Old 15-02-2014, 20:37   #32
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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i've read the storm tactics book by the Pardy's, (good reading), And other descriptions of heaving to as well as the forum responses. I haven't seen an mention of heaving to in a ketch or other two masted boat. Anyone have a technique for those boats? I don't plan to be offshore but it would be a nice way ,as suggested, to wait for dawn or a favorable tide before entering an inlet or anchorage.
my boats a 38' ketch - i use heaving to all the time, it's a great help for the solo sailor. I simply sheet in the jib, ease the main and mizzen sheets and go about 'til the jib backs, then lock the helm over and wait til she settles. I use this for dropping/raising sails, radio scheds, or getting the deck organised if I'm heading into an anchorage. Haven't tried it in a storm, I'd only keep sails up to a certain point - have thought of using the storm jib but it'd have to already be up.
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Old 15-02-2014, 21:10   #33
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

The heaviest conditions I've ever heard of a yacht surviving is this;
Charlie Blanchet, survivor of "the Ultimate Storm" with a Coppins sea anchor, as reported in 'Boating New Zealand' magazine, November 2001. Wind speed was recorded at up to 154 knots with wave heights of up to 100 feet.
The boat was a steel ketch he built himself, a Roberts Mauritius, 38ft if I recall correctly..
$%^&^$# that!
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Old 15-02-2014, 22:10   #34
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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The heaviest conditions I've ever heard of a yacht surviving is this;
Charlie Blanchet, survivor of "the Ultimate Storm" with a Coppins sea anchor, as reported in 'Boating New Zealand' magazine, November 2001. Wind speed was recorded at up to 154 knots with wave heights of up to 100 feet.
The boat was a steel ketch he built himself, a Roberts Mauritius, 38ft if I recall correctly..
$%^&^$# that!

Is this really true? I couldnt find any info on the all knowing web but that dont mean much.

mouse
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Old 15-02-2014, 22:12   #35
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

The most important piece of information I've picked up about heaving to I got from the Pardey book-- that being hove to is a state and a result, not a particular set of sail, compass bearing or set up of gear.

You want to be drifting slowly back behind the slick, directly downwind, without actively manning the helm and without sailing out of it, and you use whatever set of sails and gear you need to to accomplish that goal. What works on one boat may or may not work on another. What is necessary on one boat may not be necessary on another.

Because it is a state and a result, it is possible on any boat. What changes is what it takes to put a given boat in that state, not whether it's possible. The idea that a boat "won't heave to" is a myth.

Furthermore, along those same lines, I've read definitions that clearly are not heaving to, that, for instance, include "sailing very slowly, at less than a knot." It was just such a definition that convinced me that my U.S. Sailing instructor didn't understand heaving to, and was merely repeating U.S. Sailing dogma.

From what I understand from the Pardeys, the magic is in the slick and in forcing waves not to break against the boat.

Now, before you take what I say and run with it, remember that I've never been out in winds over 25, and go read what people who have have written. I suggest starting with the Pardey book, but I'm not going to be aboard, so it's up to you.

Survival tactics are definitely one of the most important places to use critical thinking and careful analysis.

Good luck!
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Old 15-02-2014, 22:18   #36
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

Yep, wind speeds and wave conditions independently verified. Used to have the detail on the WA Coppins website, now there is just a statement from Charlie. I guess boating NZ own the copyright to the article, so WA Coppins had to take it off their site. Pity, was a really interesting. I guess you could contact WA Coppins or Boating NZ for verification. Storm was of the West coast of New Zealand's South Island, in the roaring 40's.

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Old 15-02-2014, 23:50   #37
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

Fin keel boats don't produce a slick worth talking about and not all boats will heave to in strong winds and large seas. Pardey's boat is a full keel and the strategies they employ work best on full keel boats.
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Old 16-02-2014, 00:07   #38
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

Sorry Robert, I don't agree. It may/does work better in a full keel boat, but it works well in my boat, a 40ft Farr, fin keel and spade rudder, 7000 kg displacement.

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Old 16-02-2014, 01:28   #39
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

I simply said fin keel boats do not create much of a slick and that not all boats heave to, yours does, which is fine. Nothing to disagree with.
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Old 16-02-2014, 22:25   #40
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

[QUOTE=southpw11;1464588]
Second question, I've seen people mention that your boat can get rolled by a breaking wave that is 55% of the LOA of your boat./QUOTE]

IIRC, a breaking wave, striking on the beam, 1/3 the length of the boat will roll it in tank tests.
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Old 16-02-2014, 22:59   #41
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

Yep, 1/3 is normally sufficient. If the period of the waves matches the roll moment of the boat, a sequence of much smaller waves can do it too...

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Old 16-02-2014, 23:46   #42
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

We believe that the best storm tactic is to run with the storm's circulation, with the wind on your quarter and your bow pointing to the outside of the circulation until you run out of the storm...then, if you like, you can heave-to for a rest.

Heaving-to in a storm is problematic because:
  • You will not be seen by other boats that could ruin your day.
  • You will drift, the storm moves, and you could move into a worse situation.
  • Going below when heaved-to is NOT standing watch.

We used the running tactic when we were caught in an unpredicted Cyclone in the Bay of Bengal.

Bill
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Old 17-02-2014, 00:16   #43
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
We believe that the best storm tactic is to run with the storm's circulation, with the wind on your quarter and your bow pointing to the outside of the circulation until you run out of the storm...then, if you like, you can heave-to for a rest.

Heaving-to in a storm is problematic because:
  • You will not be seen by other boats that could ruin your day.
  • You will drift, the storm moves, and you could move into a worse situation.
  • Going below when heaved-to is NOT standing watch.

We used the running tactic when we were caught in an unpredicted Cyclone in the Bay of Bengal.

Bill
Good advice, although if you're in quadrant 1, this will take you across the face of the storm.

I agree whole - heartedly that an empty cockpit means no one is on watch
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Old 17-02-2014, 10:57   #44
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Re: Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by svBeBe View Post
We believe that the best storm tactic is to run with the storm's circulation, with the wind on your quarter and your bow pointing to the outside of the circulation until you run out of the storm...then, if you like, you can heave-to for a rest.

Heaving-to in a storm is problematic because:
  • [1]You will not be seen by other boats that could ruin your day.
    [2]You will drift, the storm moves, and you could move into a worse situation.
    [3]Going below when heaved-to is NOT standing watch.

We used the running tactic when we were caught in an unpredicted Cyclone in the Bay of Bengal.

Bill
Both running with it and heaving to can be effective tactics depending upon the situatuon. It is not an either/or choice.

Re 1. A boat hove to is no less visible. What's your thinking on this?

Re 2. Could, but depends upon circumstances and specifics of the weather system. I've hove to many times and allowed systems to roll over our position (strong squalls, frontal boundaries for example). Also have run with it to improve position relative to storm and/or hazards. Whether to use an active technique (running) or a passive one (heaving to) is a judgement call based on circumstances and both maybe used during the course of the same weather event.

Re 3. Agreed. Regardless of tactic used, not maintaining a proper watch not only vilotates COLREGS, but is not prudent seamanship.
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Old 17-02-2014, 16:54   #45
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Heaving to / Other Storm tactics

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
The most important piece of information I've picked up about heaving to I got from the Pardey book-- that being hove to is a state and a result, not a particular set of sail, compass bearing or set up of gear.

You want to be drifting slowly back behind the slick, directly downwind, without actively manning the helm and without sailing out of it, and you use whatever set of sails and gear you need to to accomplish that goal. What works on one boat may or may not work on another. What is necessary on one boat may not be necessary on another.

Because it is a state and a result, it is possible on any boat. What changes is what it takes to put a given boat in that state, not whether it's possible. The idea that a boat "won't heave to" is a myth.

Furthermore, along those same lines, I've read definitions that clearly are not heaving to, that, for instance, include "sailing very slowly, at less than a knot." It was just such a definition that convinced me that my U.S. Sailing instructor didn't understand heaving to, and was merely repeating U.S. Sailing dogma.

From what I understand from the Pardeys, the magic is in the slick and in forcing waves not to break against the boat.

Now, before you take what I say and run with it, remember that I've never been out in winds over 25, and go read what people who have have written. I suggest starting with the Pardey book, but I'm not going to be aboard, so it's up to you.

Survival tactics are definitely one of the most important places to use critical thinking and careful analysis.

Good luck!
You need some real world experiences before you make some of these claims.

Heaving to " successfully" is not reliably possible in many boats, particulary in survival weather. In fact I'd go to say that most fin keeled yachts with small immersed forefoot s will not hove to successfully in survival conditions.

Furthermore in my opinion deploying sea anchors is not heaving to. It's deploying sea anchors.

Furthermore the idea of a " slick" is somewhat laughable.

Virtually no boat hoves to " stopped dead" there is always an element of fore reaching, there has to be some forward motion to allow the rudder to work. Hove to is not " stopped" . Most modern yachts that will heave to, Often sit almost broadside to the wind. In bringing them close to the wind, you will get a significant element of fore reaching. Often the cabin top and mast are enough in a big wind to cause significant fore reaching

Too many people read specific books about specific circumstances and then generalise.

Book learning isn't really useful in big storms, seamanship is

Dave
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