Heaving-to

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by lancelot9898

If during this situation you had a way to lash the wheel, how could you heave to without any sail up?

It's all about balance. Most boats today are either cutter or sloop rigged with some kind of foresail or two. A furled (rolled) genoa or jib can produce a lot of resistance, sometimes just enough, sometimes too much. You have to practice and know your boat. Ketches act a little different in heavy air and seas and sometimes need balancing with the mizzen. I prefer to power into the heave for the added security of maneuvering quickly if the need arises. A 30 KN wind is a good practice zone, anything lower won't really give you the "feel" of the heave. You know you have it right when the boat gets a rolling quietness with a slight drifting feel. The real test is to stay calm and trust your boat, she'll do what you ask; you just have to ask the right question.

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Would be useful if the next person to set a Parachute Anchor could shoot some Youtube of how it was deployed, as well as before and after effects. .......if they've got nothing bettter to do at the time

There is a hint in there somewhere

The Pardys have done that: Storm Tactics DVD (available online or WestMarine) Video Clips | Sailing Blog | Lin & Larry Pardey

[Uncle Buck]

Originally Posted by lancelot9898

If during this situation you had a way to lash the wheel, how could you heave to without any sail up?

I guess technically it's called " lying ahull " (sp?) without any canvas up, but with the wheel lashed to weather she lies in the same position. I attribute this to her deep draft (7'6"), massive underbelly, large appendages, low freeboard/windage and heft (22 tons).

When we finally decided to try and get into harbor (most of them were closed), we tried something I had not done before since going on deck (or even having a hatch open) was really dangerous. I rolled out about one beach towels worth of jib and fired up the diesel - we then powered at about 2.5 - 3 knots, beam reaching across the wind at seas. It was scary as hell at first since each time a wave broke over the boat it sounded like somebody was trying to break through the cabin with a sledgehammer (the liferaft was actually dislodged and I almost lost it) but we did make it in with negligible damage. Visibility was non-existent due to spume, rain and hail so there was nothing to see by going on deck anyway. We now joke that Alsager is 1/2 submarine.

I now singlehand her and do everything almost exclusively under sail so I'm not to proud of the fact I took the " easy way " out and used the engine, but it did open my eyes to a legit extreme weather tactic in my boat - food for thought. I had to crawl on all fours when in the cockpit to throw her in gear - not sure how I could have raised any sail safely even if she could have carried it. Windage of the rig alone was enough to keep the leeward rail within 6" of the water at all times.

[PamlicoTraveler]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Keep your head, be cool and thoughtful and don't panic and that boat will get you thru anything.

Thanks! I think you are right - I am confident in the boat and we haven't been seriously tested in it yet - and of course it suits me fine if we never are. I still want to have that trysail though, just for the peace of mind.

[lancelot9898]

Originally Posted by evanOR

I guess technically it's called " lying ahull " (sp?) without any canvas up, but with the wheel lashed to weather she lies in the same position.

not sure how I could have raised any sail safely even if she could have carried it. Windage of the rig alone was enough to keep the leeward rail within 6" of the water at all times.

That's what I thought. I normally think that the weak link is most always the human link rather than the boat and for that reason a passive approach is best unless you have a strong crew. However lying ahull is never a good idea under extreme conditions and some means of getting the bow into the winds and waves is needed and that would mean getting some sail set. Not sure how this is done with the conditions you describe. I do have a storm tri sail on seperate sail track which I've never used in anger and hope to never have to.

[Uncle Buck]

I agree 100% - it was the boat that took care of us. I had three crew on board, all of whom were immobilized due to severe sickness. One of them went into shock (and he is a big wave surfer...) and I was lucky that the others could at least tend to him.

In my case I believe lee curtains provided adequate windange (in combo with what seems to be an enormous rudder) to drive the stern to leeward. I was worried that a breaker would tear the whole lot down but it was too late to do anything about it by that point. They were stretched like crazy though, as was the nylon line I used to lash them on.

[Arclight]

After reading all the different opinions, studys, hype, marketing BS and first person accounts, I've concluded that the Jordan Series Drogue is the only way to go in severe breaking wave conditions.

[Mainebristol]

Funny... I've read all that stuff, too. I thought that way at first, but now I have concluded that heaving to with a para anchor is the only way to go.

[cburger]

Originally Posted by Arclight

After reading all the different opinions, studys, hype, marketing BS and first person accounts, I've concluded that the Jordan Series Drogue is the only way to go in severe breaking wave conditions.

I couldn'e agree more, the results don't lie.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Arclight

After reading all the different opinions, studys, hype, marketing BS and first person accounts, I've concluded that the Jordan Series Drogue is the only way to go in severe breaking wave conditions.

Originally Posted by Mainebristol

Funny... I've read all that stuff, too. I thought that way at first, but now I have concluded that heaving to with a para anchor is the only way to go.

And after actually using them both, I think you are both wrong. There is a time and place and boat and conditions for both these two tools and for the many other tactical options. There is no single silver bullet gear or tactics that will work in every situation for every boat.

[TEE]

The Pardees have a relatively small and light boat. There suggestions works well on their boat, but in my opinion could be disasterous for a heavy large (over 38 foot) cruising boat. The loads in the pennant under the Pardee method are massive. Either the pennant will snap in a surge, or you will lose a cleat. If you happen to be around the cleat at the time, you will probably lose your arm or head or whatever else gets in the way. I have a Shannon 43 also, and bought a Jordan Series Drogue. If you are running with the drogue, the ride is comfortable and if you get in trouble, you can cut the drogue away and still control the boat. If you are on a bow rigged parachute, your bow is into the seas. If you get in trouble or have a cleat tear out, you might ride out the first wave, but the second is going to get ya' broadside, and what an ugly encounter that may be.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Arclight

After reading all the different opinions, studys, hype, marketing BS and first person accounts, I've concluded that the Jordan Series Drogue is the only way to go in severe breaking wave conditions.

I have also been convinced by the series drogue after lots of reading on the subject. Mine is an armchair opinion, like yours, but I will make up a series drogue this year and perhaps will be able to check back in with real experience.

What is convincing to me about the series drogue is:

1. Your boat will be much more stable stern-to the wind and seas rather than bow-to. This is objectively true.

2. You are riding over the seas rather than bashing through them, which has got to be much more stable and gentle.

3. The series cones will be a lot more stable in the water than a big single chute -- which can collapse or come out of the water.

I do not think that seas breaking over the stern is a big disadvantage of the series drogue for most boats. Maybe for a double-ender with little buoyancy in the stern. But I think that most boats will ride up on the waves, even huge ones.

My boat is a center cockpit with quite a lot of deck between the helm and the water astern. I don't think taking a large breaking wave on the stern is going to be much more harmful than taking it on the bow, in my particular case. I have taken large breaking waves on the beam -- coming into the cockpit on one occasion. It was unpleasant but not terrifying.

I have not yet met a storm I couldn't sail through, but since there's a first time for everything I am planning to make up a series drogue this year. Running before 45 to 50 knot winds with a scrap of headsail up works ok in my boat in the sea states I have encountered so far. My boat will get up to quite high speeds under those conditions (I have seen 13 knots and more) and so the relative speed compared to the waves is reduced, giving the boat more time to rise with the waves as they come. All bets are off, of course, if the seas get really high and start breaking. I haven't encountered such conditions so far and won't mind if I never do.

I do heave to from time to time and would plan to do that first in conditions which make sailing too exhausting, but which are not yet at a catastrophic state. My boat heaves to very well despite her bulb keel, but I have one question -- what does anyone do about chafing of the backed headsail? My yankee lies against the spreaders when I am hove to. Perhaps with the yankee rolled way in -- as it would be in storm conditions -- this would cease to be a problem.

[donradcliffe]

Every boat is different, but looking at the layup in the bow of my boat vs in the transom, I bought a parachute anchor. I have never used the anchor, but its an insurance policy like the life raft.

I have run before 50+ knots in different boats, and my experience is that speed is your friend. Several times I have looked back at a 12 ft wall of breaking water and was glad that I was going fast enough to stay ahead of it. In an old Cal 36, we got seriously pooped by overtaking waves, but in the Santa Cruz 40, we had enough speed (12-18 knots under double-reefed main) to stay far enough ahead of the breaking waves that pooping and pitchpoling were not an issue. A drogue would have made things worse unless you were in a double-ender that didn't have the boat speed to start with.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Every boat is different, but looking at the layup in the bow of my boat vs in the transom, I bought a parachute anchor. I have never used the anchor, but its an insurance policy like the life raft.

I have run before 50+ knots in different boats, and my experience is that speed is your friend. Several times I have looked back at a 12 ft wall of breaking water and was glad that I was going fast enough to stay ahead of it. In an old Cal 36, we got seriously pooped by overtaking waves, but in the Santa Cruz 40, we had enough speed (12-18 knots under double-reefed main) to stay far enough ahead of the breaking waves that pooping and pitchpoling were not an issue. A drogue would have made things worse unless you were in a double-ender that didn't have the boat speed to start with.

Speed ceases to be your friend when you start to surf down the face of huge waves, out of control, burying the bow into the back of the wave in front and pitchpoling, or broaching.

[Therapy]

I will admit that I have not read all of that drogue testing stuff.
I will also admit that I have never been in 40 knots long enough for a sea to build.
I will add my researched thoughts below.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have also been convinced by the series drogue after lots of reading on the subject. Mine is an armchair opinion, like yours, but I will make up a series drogue this year and perhaps will be able to check back in with real experience.

What is convincing to me about the series drogue is:

1. Your boat will be much more stable stern-to the wind and seas rather than bow-to. This is objectively true. I don't get this. Any time I have backed a boat into any type of "seas" it is a wet, slamming mess until it is turned around and the bow aims at the stuff coming. To me this is just logic and why boats are shaped the way they are.

2. You are riding over the seas rather than bashing through them, which has got to be much more stable and gentle. I can see that if one is moving with the waves then each impact will be lessened by that amount of speed. But as in 1. the difference in the way the boat can take it more than makes up the difference. I can't do the math on a complex wave series (breaking and not) and how 0 knots bow on makes the boat act as opposed to 5 knots faster than the wave and it hitting the stern. Just in my mind. And in the bath tub.

3. The series cones will be a lot more stable in the water than a big single chute -- which can collapse or come out of the water. From the users of parachutes I don't see that the cones are any more "stable". Not sure what that means. Chutes can collapse I guess but seemingly only when being deployed (improperly?). Then they open up and stay that way. With proper weight and length of rode a chute will not come out of the water

I do not think that seas breaking over the stern is a big disadvantage of the series drogue for most boats. Maybe for a double-ender with little buoyancy in the stern. But I think that most boats will ride up on the waves, even huge ones.

My boat is a center cockpit with quite a lot of deck between the helm and the water astern. I don't think taking a large breaking wave on the stern is going to be much more harmful than taking it on the bow, in my particular case. I have taken large breaking waves on the beam -- coming into the cockpit on one occasion. It was unpleasant but not terrifying.

I have not yet met a storm I couldn't sail through, but since there's a first time for everything I am planning to make up a series drogue this year. Running before 45 to 50 knot winds with a scrap of headsail up works ok in my boat in the sea states I have encountered so far. My boat will get up to quite high speeds under those conditions (I have seen 13 knots and more) and so the relative speed compared to the waves is reduced, giving the boat more time to rise with the waves as they come. All bets are off, of course, if the seas get really high and start breaking. I haven't encountered such conditions so far and won't mind if I never do.

I do heave to from time to time and would plan to do that first in conditions which make sailing too exhausting, but which are not yet at a catastrophic state. My boat heaves to very well despite her bulb keel, but I have one question -- what does anyone do about chafing of the backed headsail? My yankee lies against the spreaders when I am hove to. Perhaps with the yankee rolled way in -- as it would be in storm conditions -- this would cease to be a problem.

Just another arm chair opinion.
Mine is in preference to the chute though. Set it out and make tea.

Maybe it is just the cat in me.