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Old 07-01-2011, 20:09   #61
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Theropy,
At risk of being landed heavily on...I think the idea behind the "stability" of the mutitude of little cones creating the massive holdback power instead of a single large divice it that a single large divice has the ability (not nescessarily probability) of punching out of the wave it is riding in and allowing your boat to surge and potentially broach or pitchpole. The seas aren't always even and futhermore the darn thing will most likely need to be adjusted at intervals to prevent chafe through...and that will most likely be in the out direction because of the forces on it. The Jordan is recomended to be attatched to a hard point or points (bridle) designed for the job and with hard tackle (shackles and thimbles) and doesn't need to be adjusted. ....and, yes, armchair all the way but from what I have been able to gather.

Of course, comparing sea anchors to drag devices is probably a silly thing to do as pointed out by those who have used both as it is a bit like comparing the apple and orange thing. Seems there is a real place for each. Also seems that if you deploy one or the other and decide it isn't the thing for the times, you will probably need the one remaining because you quite possibly aren't going to be getting that first one back! You'll have to cut it loose because of the forces involved.

In theory I think heaving to, bow 4 points to the waves, with no forward motion held by a bridled sea anchor so as not to sail out of the protected area caused by a slick that extends to windward and causes the breakers to fizzle before they reach you sounds great. In practice I can imagine that there are times in confused seas where it isn't so possible and others in really large ones where the slick might be a bit of a drop in the ocean so to speake. How about windshifts before sea shift? And then to think of a drag device on a lee shore? With the hove to on a bridle setup you might at least creep the right direction to save your boat. There could be others where turning and draging back for the fifth time might be a bit too much with another option. And imagine just the thought of running up there to the windlass to deploy, adjust for chafe (quite often according to Lynn and Larry's 'storm tactics') and inspect it in 50 kt winds or more with the seas that might be there! 45 perhaps, but 50, 60?...it'd be hard to hold on while crawling. Luckily I don't think many get that opportunity and I certainly hope I never do...but I do think I will make a jordan and keep my eyes open for a chute or at least the rig to use the jib as one if needed. I can see times where I would be thankful for each.
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Old 07-01-2011, 20:27   #62
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@Dockhead, I'm with Therapy...
Yeah well, that's just all to complicated when the sh!t hits the fan. My heave to requires no chute or drogue, I do it in the classic way (with an engine). I don't have to worry about cutting anything loose, getting tangled or whatever in my shaft, hair or mast. As for the Pardy's who use no engine; my personal belief is that it's irresponsible these days to be a purist especially if it adds to the high cost of life and limb to our boys (or anybody's) in the Coast Guard. I do use a drogue, bucket, anchor or whatever works when I'm on the run. I really hate that sinking feeling while planing the downside of a 40 footer. Then again I found the best way was to keep track of the weather and avoid these obstacles.
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Old 07-01-2011, 20:41   #63
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Theropy,
Blah blah blah blah, so much wind.
A sea anchor is NOT required to heave to; this is just nonsense. All these add-ons were designed for boats without a real keel. To heave to at 70KN gusting and 45'ers at 150-180 seconds setting a "anything" ain't going to happen fast enough even if you were smart enough to string your jack lines. With all furled there should be enough resistance to overcome the wind and current if you fire then engine up. This provides support power for the radio and actually adds solace to those less experienced. If your the Cap'n you need to make decisions, immediately and firmly.
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Old 08-01-2011, 04:29   #64
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Woa Seahunter,
All that steam!
Did anyone say anything about a sea anchor being required to heave to? Are you going to rely on the engine to slow you down instead of having a drag device? Have at it. It seems to me that many would like other options even if we hope never to find the need to use them.

Sorry to raise the blood pressure.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:20   #65
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The Pardees have a relatively small and light boat. There suggestions works well on their boat, but in my opinion could be disasterous for a heavy large (over 38 foot) cruising boat. The loads in the pennant under the Pardee method are massive. Either the pennant will snap in a surge, or you will lose a cleat. If you happen to be around the cleat at the time, you will probably lose your arm or head or whatever else gets in the way. I have a Shannon 43 also, and bought a Jordan Series Drogue. If you are running with the drogue, the ride is comfortable and if you get in trouble, you can cut the drogue away and still control the boat. If you are on a bow rigged parachute, your bow is into the seas. If you get in trouble or have a cleat tear out, you might ride out the first wave, but the second is going to get ya' broadside, and what an ugly encounter that may be.
OK, I don't know the specifics of the series drogue but I know from experience that tremendous loads are placed on any other drogue - in our case so much so that after two days we suspected the rode had snapped. We later "recovered" it to find the line had chaffed through. Didn't pull out any cleats, but probably would have in a less stoutly built boat.

So, how is that different?
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:29   #66
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I agree 100% - it was the boat that took care of us. I had three crew on board, all of whom were immobilized due to severe sickness. One of them went into shock (and he is a big wave surfer...) and I was lucky that the others could at least tend to him.

In my case I believe lee curtains provided adequate windange (in combo with what seems to be an enormous rudder) to drive the stern to leeward. I was worried that a breaker would tear the whole lot down but it was too late to do anything about it by that point. They were stretched like crazy though, as was the nylon line I used to lash them on.

In my case, we had to lie ahull in the end - after a dismasting. I was thankful for a well-found boat and firmly and without qualification believe that in a lesser boat I wouldn't be writing this. But I have been on earlier threads where others have strenuously argued that the boat doesn't matter at all. I just shake my head. When the s*%t hits the fan, the difference between a good boat and a mediocre boat is the skipper's margin of error - and, I for one, am far from perfect.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:34   #67
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As another armchair viewer.....

seems the big plus to a drogue is ease of deployment - from stern. and probably no need to turn the boat by then. and can be deployed as a late decision and (fairly) easy to adjust from cockpit. downside is that probably has a limit to wind force / wave size, plus need to have very stout cleats on the stern.

for the parachute the big downside is a need to deploy from bow and that vessel (needs?) to be headed into the waves to do that........and by the time the decision to deploy made then fannying around on the bow not so attractive. for same reason later adjustment not very conveniant. will also need stout cleats - but more likely to have those already or at least beefing up the existing arragements would serve dual purpose for anchoring. It appears though that the parachute has the edge in extreme conditions (if set right - and still attached!) by holding the vessel in station with the seas as well as any calming effect from a slick.

out of choice I would prefer to take seas on the bow.

whether any of the above is accurate or not is another thing - but it's my take on 'em............
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:13   #68
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In my case, we had to lie ahull in the end - after a dismasting. I was thankful for a well-found boat and firmly and without qualification believe that in a lesser boat I wouldn't be writing this. .
I notice that you're a fellow Tayana 37 owner. I'm not quite happy with the way the boat heaves to in that it falls off the wind more than I like and the foward speed aproaches 2 knots. I grant you that I have not really hove to under severe condition other than the 50 knot blast that lasted for about 10 minutes with full sails up. It was panic time and I had little time to think and just brought the boat to a heave to postion and then proceded to reef the main. Most of the time I practice in 20 knots of wind and under full sail thinking that under reduced sail and higher winds the boat will exhibited similar behavior. I have a 100% high cut yankee and a staysail on a club boom. Because it's difficult to backwind the staysail due to it being self tacking, I will sometimes douse it to see if that has any effect which for the most part it doesn't. Are you able to point the bow about 50-60 degrees off the wind and get the boat speed to around a knot of forereaching? I've tried every adjustment and apparently that back winded yankee is too much for the main. In higher winds I may not need any sail back winded since the bow may offer sufficient windage to keep from tacking through??
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:35   #69
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And after actually using them both, I think you are both wrong. There is a time and place and boat and conditions for both these two tools and for the many other tactical options. There is no single silver bullet gear or tactics that will work in every situation for every boat.
I concur.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:45   #70
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And after actually using them both, I think you are both wrong. There is a time and place and boat and conditions for both these two tools and for the many other tactical options. There is no single silver bullet gear or tactics that will work in every situation for every boat.
My money is on Evan. I believe his advice is sound.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:26   #71
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In brief I learned the following from my experience, and (now knowing my boat inside and out) would do the following when faced with this again.

1) Forecast over 40 knots sustained - wait it out, even if in the right direction. However, if I am out there.....:

2) Run under bare poles again, assuming:

a) adequate sea room and I'm more or less going where I want to
b) speed stays below the point where surfing becomes dangerous
c) I am going to carry reams of cheap line and and an old tire weighed down, and before things get really nuts deploy it off the primary winches and experiment with length, placement in trough etc. Drag is drag, as long as the device stays in the water and the right distance from the boat. Anything else is marketing. I do want to experiment with slowing the boat since I have not tried that yet.

3) Failing the prevention of dangerous surfing/too much speed, I will heave to/lie a hull with wheel lashed and go below until its over.

I know my failsafe is heaving to without any devices necessary. In my experience, if things get really ugly fast enough, it is too late to even get something over the stern safely., and no way in a million years would deploying something over the bow be even a consideration. Suicide. If conditions permit doing that, then you don't need that in the first place.

4) I now also know I can safely motor (now known as " submarine mode ") across, not against (no way in hell) brutal conditions, keeping everyone below decks and hatches dogged down tight. Even the cockpit was not safe, and this is an option if you do need to get somewhere other than the direction the blow is taking you.

You need to do what you can to lessen the apparent wind/waves on the boat - period. May be stating the obvious, but the wind is not the danger - it's the swell, and in particular, the period - not just size. A massive long period groundswell is no concern.

Agree 110% with sneuman. In survival conditions the boat is everything. I am convinced in a lesser boat we would not have made it. I used to doubt this too until I experienced it.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:28   #72
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And after actually using them both, I think you are both wrong. There is a time and place and boat and conditions for both these two tools and for the many other tactical options. There is no single silver bullet gear or tactics that will work in every situation for every boat.
Things I have learned:

- estarzinger is spot on correct in his comment, and "for the many other tactical options" holds a lot of information to consider.

- Well earned respect to the Pardeys; however, they are not the final say-all on cruising or storm tactics in todays world.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:15   #73
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I notice that you're a fellow Tayana 37 owner. I'm not quite happy with the way the boat heaves to in that it falls off the wind more than I like and the foward speed aproaches 2 knots. I grant you that I have not really hove to under severe condition other than the 50 knot blast that lasted for about 10 minutes with full sails up. It was panic time and I had little time to think and just brought the boat to a heave to postion and then proceded to reef the main. Most of the time I practice in 20 knots of wind and under full sail thinking that under reduced sail and higher winds the boat will exhibited similar behavior. I have a 100% high cut yankee and a staysail on a club boom. Because it's difficult to backwind the staysail due to it being self tacking, I will sometimes douse it to see if that has any effect which for the most part it doesn't. Are you able to point the bow about 50-60 degrees off the wind and get the boat speed to around a knot of forereaching? I've tried every adjustment and apparently that back winded yankee is too much for the main. In higher winds I may not need any sail back winded since the bow may offer sufficient windage to keep from tacking through??
Lancelot,
It seems you have more experience heaving to in a Tayana 37 than do I. The vessel which I mention above was a Hong Kong-built Taipan 28 - not dissimilar in displacement or design from a Cheoy Lee Offshore 27
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:05   #74
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s*%t hits the fan, the difference between a good boat and a mediocre boat is the skipper's margin of error - and, I for one, am far from perfect.

LOL Conrad, No steam here, just gas and a little wind.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:27   #75
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You need to do what you can to lessen the apparent wind/waves on the boat - period. May be stating the obvious, but the wind is not the danger - it's the swell, and in particular, the period - not just size. A massive long period groundswell is no concern.
In the northwest, swells can be 60'-70' high but 3 -5 miles long, they make you giddy and can carry a big punch when they landfall, but it's the 30'-40' breaker that's going to make your day all bad and can come even if the weather's not snotty. Knowing your boat, isn't just about where you put the beer. Sailors need to know and understand the engineered specs of their boats as well. There is basic math that covers this topic. Capsize Formula
This site also has a number of other calculations that might be of interest.
Basically any boat regardless of tonnage has a predetermined capsize point based on it's length. EG a 45' boat with a 35' waterline can handle a breaking broaching wave of about 14 vertical feet. Because sh!t happens regardless of how well you heave, hove to, recovery is the key and the formals tell the truth.
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