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Old 06-05-2014, 09:50   #76
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Re: Heaving To

Andrew:

You are probably right about the angle forward. I think I'm just going to have to play and see how a storm/riding sail rigged at the aft end of boom balances out the effect of the bow stepped mast first. The boom extends almost to the transom where the mainsheet attaches to the end of it. If the sail angle needed is not too great I might be able to just tie the end of the boom to a cleat some where on the stern. Just going to have to experiment around with things then sit back and see how she behaves.
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Old 07-05-2014, 05:08   #77
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Re: Heaving To

One useful application for heaving to is to talk to another boat. If you can persuade them to heave to, then you can come up under their lee (or to windward, if you reckon they're making more leeway than you will) and heave to alongside.

The windward boat can forereach a bit to 'steal' some wind if the other boat is slipping away, and possibly play with the sails to accentuate its own leeway.*

Of course, it's also a great way to transfer durable (throwable!) goods. You might have run out of one thing, and them of another...

* I've never thought to try it, but a light nylon line between the boats, if attached in the right places (as a breast line) might prolong the period of 'intercourse' if the seas were low enough. A long one would not be safe, in case of breakage, without precautions (like maybe taking a turn around a winch, and surging it when it tried to snatch - in which case it would not need to be stretchy).
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Old 12-05-2014, 13:19   #78
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Re: Heaving to

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
The Lagoon 440 last trip I hove to in the standard manner with the wheel 2/3rds over and locked... unfortunately there's only 2 reefs in the main and the 3 webbing straps holding the reef roller cut through at around 40 odd knots and threw everything to crap..
But up till then she balanced nicely..

Andrew... the problem with the small Wharram Tiki's is they sail as fast backwards near enough as forwards.. so short of having someone constantly at the helm to keep her balanced you'll be kangarooing back and forth..
Think that's about the only boat I'd use a drogue on.. maybe..
Though I did sail my Tiki 26 back from Cherbourg to Poole in a SW F7 gusting 8 with full sail... a wild ride.. and did the heads in on a couple of merchant ships as I skipped past them at around 15kts... no auto pilot and I was to scared to let go of the tiller... lmao
Hello,
I am in the process of buying a Lagoon 410 (2005) for a family cruiser. My wife and I have read (several times) the "Storm Tactics Handbook". We have practiced in a Catalina 30 monohull and during ASA courses.
Is there a thread somewhere where you have gone into more details with Heaving To in a Lagoon catamaran?
This is something I would like to practice until getting it right as a primary skill right away. I am ready to learn what others are doing (specifically) to get their Lagoon (or similar) cats to Heave To. I'm now thinking maybe during the sea trial ask if the owner can demonstrate it?
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Old 12-05-2014, 18:34   #79
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Re: Heaving To

Personally in modem monohulls I don't favour heaving to as a storm tactic. I've never seen a modern boat that hove to reliably in a confused seas in survival conditions. . To me heaving to is a method to stop the boat in sea conditions where I could always manage to sail in.

The whole thought of a sea anchor from the bow horrifies me. Loading, chafe, rudder damage etc. trips to foredeck etc.

Equally stern drogues are there IMHO to slow the boat not stop it. By slow I mean to 4-5 knots not 1-2.

Personally I found forereaching under minimal mainsail and slow ahead engine ( jogging ) to be a very useful and comfortable survival approach.

Running off under controlled stern drogues or towing warps is also effective.

Ps for mob. While I have taught many techniques. I prefer to crash stop the boat by immediately gybing, get rid of the jib, and motor back to the mob. The key in any seaway is to stay near the mob at all costs. The trouble is too many standard mob techniques are taught in calm waters with more then sufficient crew, then which fail miserably under heavy weather conditions with minimal crew.

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Old 12-05-2014, 18:38   #80
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Re: Heaving To

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Personally in modem monohulls I don't favour heaving to as a storm tactic. I've never seen a modern boat that hove to reliably in a confused seas in survival conditions. . To me heaving to is a method to stop the boat in sea conditions where I could always manage to sail in.

The whole thought of a sea anchor from the bow horrifies me. Loading, chafe, rudder damage etc. trips to foredeck etc.

Equally stern drogues are there IMHO to slow the boat not stop it. By slow I mean to 4-5 knots not 1-2.

Personally I found forereaching under minimal mainsail and slow ahead engine ( jogging ) to be a very useful and comfortable survival approach.

Running off under controlled stern drogues or towing warps is also effective.

Ps for mob. While I have taught many techniques. I prefer to crash stop the boat by immediately gybing, get rid of the jib, and motor back to the mob. The key in any seaway is to stay near the mob at all costs. The trouble is too many standard mob techniques are taught in calm waters with more then sufficient crew, then which fail miserably under heavy weather conditions with minimal crew.

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Interesting. You seem to be in the minority with those thoughts. The book "Storm Tactics" goes into great lengths about most of your concerns. Did you read it?

PS: By minority I am just going by what I have read in books, lessons, online, videos old and new about sailing...
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Old 12-05-2014, 18:44   #81
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Re: Heaving To

Sorry didn't mean gybing, I meant by immediately going hove to, personally I do t recommend any mob technique that uses gybing. Too much goes wrong with gybes

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Old 12-05-2014, 18:49   #82
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pirate Re: Heaving To

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Personally in modem monohulls I don't favour heaving to as a storm tactic. I've never seen a modern boat that hove to reliably in a confused seas in survival conditions. . To me heaving to is a method to stop the boat in sea conditions where I could always manage to sail in.

The whole thought of a sea anchor from the bow horrifies me. Loading, chafe, rudder damage etc. trips to foredeck etc.

Equally stern drogues are there IMHO to slow the boat not stop it. By slow I mean to 4-5 knots not 1-2.

Personally I found forereaching under minimal mainsail and slow ahead engine ( jogging ) to be a very useful and comfortable survival approach.

Running off under controlled stern drogues or towing warps is also effective.

Ps for mob. While I have taught many techniques. I prefer to crash stop the boat by immediately gybing, get rid of the jib, and motor back to the mob. The key in any seaway is to stay near the mob at all costs. The trouble is too many standard mob techniques are taught in calm waters with more then sufficient crew, then which fail miserably under heavy weather conditions with minimal crew.

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Dave.. the difference here is we are talking Multi's... these boats give me white knuckle moments downwind in strong blows.. chuck in a big sea and your talking pitchpole moments.. surfing down a big wave at 18kts+ and having a side wave slap your ass around so you suddenly start skidding in a serious clench moment..
My recent trip I got hit by 40kts and sea's of 3-4m and rising.. I hove to.. max reef in the main centred.. 2/3rd wheel locked and tied... then played with the jib until she sat comfortably..
She rode beautifully until the webbing on the reef block failed..
Then it got a touch scary.. lost the balance and Lagoon 440's don't have a very safe area up there to play on..
If you've a Lagoon with the reef block system.. change it to the old fashioned ring reef.. you'll blow your sail before that fails.. but relying on the system Lagoons have right now is great if you play on the coast..
If your crossing oceans.. beef it up big time..
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Old 12-05-2014, 18:52   #83
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Re: Heaving To

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Dave.. the difference here is we are talking Multi's... these boats give me white knuckle moments downwind in strong blows.. chuck in a big sea and your talking pitchpole moments.. surfing down a big wave at 18kts+ and having a side wave slap your ass around so you suddenly start skidding in a serious clench moment..
My recent trip I got hit by 40kts and sea's of 3-4m and rising.. I hove to.. max reef in the main centred.. 2/3rd wheel locked and tied... then played with the jib until she sat comfortably..
She rode beautifully until the webbing on the reef block failed..
Then it got a touch scary.. lost the balance and Lagoon 440's don't have a very safe area up there to play on..
If you've a Lagoon with the reef block system.. change it to the old fashioned ring reef.. you'll blow your sail before that fails.. but relying on the system Lagoons have right now is great if you play on the coast..
If your crossing oceans.. beef it up big time..

I defer to your greater wisdom re cats. Sailed a few, they give me the shivers. Not natural , my comments are exclusively for monohulls.

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Old 12-05-2014, 18:59   #84
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Re: Heaving To

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The book "Storm Tactics" goes into great lengths about most of your concerns. Did you read it?
No, he didn't.

Contempt prior to investigation.
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Old 12-05-2014, 19:00   #85
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pirate Re: Heaving To

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I defer to your greater wisdom re cats. Sailed a few, they give me the shivers. Not natural , my comments are exclusively for monohulls.

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No wisdom here mate... just an engorged Adams Apple...
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Old 12-05-2014, 19:09   #86
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Heaving To

Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastdaddy View Post
Interesting. You seem to be in the minority with those thoughts. The book "Storm Tactics" goes into great lengths about most of your concerns. Did you read it?

PS: By minority I am just going by what I have read in books, lessons, online, videos old and new about sailing...

I have it , read it along with several others, personally I favour Dashews excellent book, I don't rate the Pardeys experience to modern monohulls at all.

Lack of strong forward attachment points , exposed spade rudder. Poor foredeck protection etc. these are all features on modern boats.

Dashew is better IMHO.

I have yet to meet anyone successfully using para anchors forward in survival conditions. I understand cats might be different but I'm no expert on those unnatural things. !

And I agree with Phil, just what problem are you trying to solve with a para anchor forward. If on the ocean. A bit of forereaching doesn't matter. If on a lee shore, I'll fight like crazy to get out of that situation, not put up a friggen tent in the water and go below, tired and alive being better then rested and dead !

My experience is based on many deliveries of modern fin keeled monohulls through some very bad and or survival type storms.

Personally I have a very jaundiced view of standardised processes, most systems have to severely adjusted for conditions boat type and crew strength.

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Old 12-05-2014, 19:11   #87
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Heaving To

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No, he didn't.

Contempt prior to investigation.

Of the eight books I have that detail heavy weather tactics , I rate the Pardeys about middle, few books rate para anchors like they do, and today fewer have anything like the type of boat. Larry built.

Other then that you're just being rude

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Old 12-05-2014, 19:16   #88
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pirate Re: Heaving To

Reading a book does not make you an expert.. just another dickhead..
When you've been out there and done it in 8m+ sea's and 60 plus kts.. then talk
Until then.. Jam on..
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Old 12-05-2014, 19:19   #89
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Re: Heaving To

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Reading a book does not make you an expert.. just another dickhead..
When you've been out there and done it in 8m+ sea's and 60 plus kts.. then talk
Until then.. Jam on..

Absolutely. What's works at sea is a page 27 from book A with page 10 from book B , Etc, and a bit of bailing twine, ie seamanship

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Old 12-05-2014, 22:26   #90
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Re: Heaving To

Got you mixed up with skipper john. You sound alike.

Andrew, we had no success at all heaving to using the prevented main method.

There were two things that wouldn't stay where we put them: the clew would move just enough to allow the boat to fall off broadside to the waves, and I swear the mast furler kept inching tighter. That is, as we sat there, fighting the damned clew, the force on the main would pull the furl in the mast tighter, and the main would inch out, slowly, until it had sufficient slack that a) the main was no longer tight and b) the clew would, because it had slack, move just enough to allow the boat to fall off. Once the boat fell off too far, things went to hell in a bucket. Staying hove-to with that main would have required constant attention, and that's the dead opposite of what heaving to is for.

The wind was not high, it was somewhere around 15, (I say that because there were small, breaking whitecaps everywhere) and the seas were not large. Call them a foot, maybe two, if that. Just enough to annoy if you got broadside, or if you were motoring too fast.

All in all, I liked the method but not the boat, and I'm now done with that boat. My preference is now set, I do not like mast furling. I like jiffy reefing and I love lazy jacks, but I don't like mast furling. You can really cinch jiffy reefing down tight, and it will stay where you put it, but not with a mast furler. One of the main reasons I'm done with this boat is because i couldn't get it to heave to with this method, and I see the value of this method.

But my crew thinks I'm crazy, and that I sit up nights dreaming up weird things to try with boats, at their expense.
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