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06-05-2014, 08:50
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#76
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,140
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Re: Heaving To
Andrew:
You are probably right about the angle forward. I think I'm just going to have to play and see how a storm/riding sail rigged at the aft end of boom balances out the effect of the bow stepped mast first. The boom extends almost to the transom where the mainsheet attaches to the end of it. If the sail angle needed is not too great I might be able to just tie the end of the boom to a cleat some where on the stern. Just going to have to experiment around with things then sit back and see how she behaves.
__________________
Mike
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07-05-2014, 04:08
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
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Re: Heaving To
One useful application for heaving to is to talk to another boat. If you can persuade them to heave to, then you can come up under their lee (or to windward, if you reckon they're making more leeway than you will) and heave to alongside.
The windward boat can forereach a bit to 'steal' some wind if the other boat is slipping away, and possibly play with the sails to accentuate its own leeway.*
Of course, it's also a great way to transfer durable (throwable!) goods. You might have run out of one thing, and them of another...
* I've never thought to try it, but a light nylon line between the boats, if attached in the right places (as a breast line) might prolong the period of 'intercourse' if the seas were low enough. A long one would not be safe, in case of breakage, without precautions (like maybe taking a turn around a winch, and surging it when it tried to snatch - in which case it would not need to be stretchy).
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12-05-2014, 12:19
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Lagoon 410 S2 2006
Posts: 186
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Re: Heaving to
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
The Lagoon 440 last trip I hove to in the standard manner with the wheel 2/3rds over and locked... unfortunately there's only 2 reefs in the main and the 3 webbing straps holding the reef roller cut through at around 40 odd knots and threw everything to crap..
But up till then she balanced nicely..
Andrew... the problem with the small Wharram Tiki's is they sail as fast backwards near enough as forwards.. so short of having someone constantly at the helm to keep her balanced you'll be kangarooing back and forth..
Think that's about the only boat I'd use a drogue on.. maybe..
Though I did sail my Tiki 26 back from Cherbourg to Poole in a SW F7 gusting 8 with full sail... a wild ride.. and did the heads in on a couple of merchant ships as I skipped past them at around 15kts... no auto pilot and I was to scared to let go of the tiller... lmao
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Hello,
I am in the process of buying a Lagoon 410 (2005) for a family cruiser. My wife and I have read (several times) the "Storm Tactics Handbook". We have practiced in a Catalina 30 monohull and during ASA courses.
Is there a thread somewhere where you have gone into more details with Heaving To in a Lagoon catamaran?
This is something I would like to practice until getting it right as a primary skill right away. I am ready to learn what others are doing (specifically) to get their Lagoon (or similar) cats to Heave To. I'm now thinking maybe during the sea trial ask if the owner can demonstrate it?
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12-05-2014, 17:34
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#79
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Heaving To
Personally in modem monohulls I don't favour heaving to as a storm tactic. I've never seen a modern boat that hove to reliably in a confused seas in survival conditions. . To me heaving to is a method to stop the boat in sea conditions where I could always manage to sail in.
The whole thought of a sea anchor from the bow horrifies me. Loading, chafe, rudder damage etc. trips to foredeck etc.
Equally stern drogues are there IMHO to slow the boat not stop it. By slow I mean to 4-5 knots not 1-2.
Personally I found forereaching under minimal mainsail and slow ahead engine ( jogging ) to be a very useful and comfortable survival approach.
Running off under controlled stern drogues or towing warps is also effective.
Ps for mob. While I have taught many techniques. I prefer to crash stop the boat by immediately gybing, get rid of the jib, and motor back to the mob. The key in any seaway is to stay near the mob at all costs. The trouble is too many standard mob techniques are taught in calm waters with more then sufficient crew, then which fail miserably under heavy weather conditions with minimal crew.
Dave
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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12-05-2014, 17:38
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#80
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Lagoon 410 S2 2006
Posts: 186
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Re: Heaving To
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Personally in modem monohulls I don't favour heaving to as a storm tactic. I've never seen a modern boat that hove to reliably in a confused seas in survival conditions. . To me heaving to is a method to stop the boat in sea conditions where I could always manage to sail in.
The whole thought of a sea anchor from the bow horrifies me. Loading, chafe, rudder damage etc. trips to foredeck etc.
Equally stern drogues are there IMHO to slow the boat not stop it. By slow I mean to 4-5 knots not 1-2.
Personally I found forereaching under minimal mainsail and slow ahead engine ( jogging ) to be a very useful and comfortable survival approach.
Running off under controlled stern drogues or towing warps is also effective.
Ps for mob. While I have taught many techniques. I prefer to crash stop the boat by immediately gybing, get rid of the jib, and motor back to the mob. The key in any seaway is to stay near the mob at all costs. The trouble is too many standard mob techniques are taught in calm waters with more then sufficient crew, then which fail miserably under heavy weather conditions with minimal crew.
Dave
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Interesting. You seem to be in the minority with those thoughts. The book "Storm Tactics" goes into great lengths about most of your concerns. Did you read it?
PS: By minority I am just going by what I have read in books, lessons, online, videos old and new about sailing...
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12-05-2014, 17:44
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#81
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Heaving To
Sorry didn't mean gybing, I meant by immediately going hove to, personally I do t recommend any mob technique that uses gybing. Too much goes wrong with gybes
Dave
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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12-05-2014, 17:49
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#82
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,586
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Re: Heaving To
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
Personally in modem monohulls I don't favour heaving to as a storm tactic. I've never seen a modern boat that hove to reliably in a confused seas in survival conditions. . To me heaving to is a method to stop the boat in sea conditions where I could always manage to sail in.
The whole thought of a sea anchor from the bow horrifies me. Loading, chafe, rudder damage etc. trips to foredeck etc.
Equally stern drogues are there IMHO to slow the boat not stop it. By slow I mean to 4-5 knots not 1-2.
Personally I found forereaching under minimal mainsail and slow ahead engine ( jogging ) to be a very useful and comfortable survival approach.
Running off under controlled stern drogues or towing warps is also effective.
Ps for mob. While I have taught many techniques. I prefer to crash stop the boat by immediately gybing, get rid of the jib, and motor back to the mob. The key in any seaway is to stay near the mob at all costs. The trouble is too many standard mob techniques are taught in calm waters with more then sufficient crew, then which fail miserably under heavy weather conditions with minimal crew.
Dave
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Dave.. the difference here is we are talking Multi's... these boats give me white knuckle moments downwind in strong blows.. chuck in a big sea and your talking pitchpole moments.. surfing down a big wave at 18kts+ and having a side wave slap your ass around so you suddenly start skidding in a serious clench moment..
My recent trip I got hit by 40kts and sea's of 3-4m and rising.. I hove to.. max reef in the main centred.. 2/3rd wheel locked and tied... then played with the jib until she sat comfortably..
She rode beautifully until the webbing on the reef block failed..
Then it got a touch scary.. lost the balance and Lagoon 440's don't have a very safe area up there to play on..
If you've a Lagoon with the reef block system.. change it to the old fashioned ring reef.. you'll blow your sail before that fails.. but relying on the system Lagoons have right now is great if you play on the coast..
If your crossing oceans.. beef it up big time..
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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12-05-2014, 17:52
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#83
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Heaving To
I defer to your greater wisdom re cats. Sailed a few, they give me the shivers. Not natural , my comments are exclusively for monohulls.
Dave
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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12-05-2014, 17:59
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#84
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,129
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Re: Heaving To
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastdaddy
The book "Storm Tactics" goes into great lengths about most of your concerns. Did you read it?
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No, he didn't.
Contempt prior to investigation.
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12-05-2014, 18:09
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#86
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Heaving To
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastdaddy
Interesting. You seem to be in the minority with those thoughts. The book "Storm Tactics" goes into great lengths about most of your concerns. Did you read it?
PS: By minority I am just going by what I have read in books, lessons, online, videos old and new about sailing...
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I have it , read it along with several others, personally I favour Dashews excellent book, I don't rate the Pardeys experience to modern monohulls at all.
Lack of strong forward attachment points , exposed spade rudder. Poor foredeck protection etc. these are all features on modern boats.
Dashew is better IMHO.
I have yet to meet anyone successfully using para anchors forward in survival conditions. I understand cats might be different but I'm no expert on those unnatural things. !
And I agree with Phil, just what problem are you trying to solve with a para anchor forward. If on the ocean. A bit of forereaching doesn't matter. If on a lee shore, I'll fight like crazy to get out of that situation, not put up a friggen tent in the water and go below, tired and alive being better then rested and dead !
My experience is based on many deliveries of modern fin keeled monohulls through some very bad and or survival type storms.
Personally I have a very jaundiced view of standardised processes, most systems have to severely adjusted for conditions boat type and crew strength.
Dave
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Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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12-05-2014, 18:11
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#87
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Heaving To
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six
No, he didn't.
Contempt prior to investigation.
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Of the eight books I have that detail heavy weather tactics , I rate the Pardeys about middle, few books rate para anchors like they do, and today fewer have anything like the type of boat. Larry built.
Other then that you're just being rude
Dave
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__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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12-05-2014, 18:19
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#89
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Heaving To
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
Reading a book does not make you an expert.. just another dickhead..
When you've been out there and done it in 8m+ sea's and 60 plus kts.. then talk
Until then.. Jam on..
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Absolutely. What's works at sea is a page 27 from book A with page 10 from book B , Etc, and a bit of bailing twine, ie seamanship
Dave
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__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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12-05-2014, 21:26
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#90
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,129
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Re: Heaving To
Got you mixed up with skipper john. You sound alike.
Andrew, we had no success at all heaving to using the prevented main method.
There were two things that wouldn't stay where we put them: the clew would move just enough to allow the boat to fall off broadside to the waves, and I swear the mast furler kept inching tighter. That is, as we sat there, fighting the damned clew, the force on the main would pull the furl in the mast tighter, and the main would inch out, slowly, until it had sufficient slack that a) the main was no longer tight and b) the clew would, because it had slack, move just enough to allow the boat to fall off. Once the boat fell off too far, things went to hell in a bucket. Staying hove-to with that main would have required constant attention, and that's the dead opposite of what heaving to is for.
The wind was not high, it was somewhere around 15, (I say that because there were small, breaking whitecaps everywhere) and the seas were not large. Call them a foot, maybe two, if that. Just enough to annoy if you got broadside, or if you were motoring too fast.
All in all, I liked the method but not the boat, and I'm now done with that boat. My preference is now set, I do not like mast furling. I like jiffy reefing and I love lazy jacks, but I don't like mast furling. You can really cinch jiffy reefing down tight, and it will stay where you put it, but not with a mast furler. One of the main reasons I'm done with this boat is because i couldn't get it to heave to with this method, and I see the value of this method.
But my crew thinks I'm crazy, and that I sit up nights dreaming up weird things to try with boats, at their expense.
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