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Old 01-05-2014, 20:56   #61
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Re: Heaving to

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Originally Posted by sabray View Post
Heaving to for a break is one thing heaving to because it's breaking waves is another.
I would rather go ass to the sea with a tad of sail up. I would rather have a stern drogue then trying to for reach with a offset para anchor. It's just to much stuff in the water. It would very hard to change tactic if the the situation degraded.yes the pardeys found it worked. I am not a pardeys .try retrieving that para anchor.
I share most of your preferences, sabray. And I'm not enthusiastic about using drag devices when there are any other viable options left on the table.

But I have to grudgingly concede that a para anchor dead ahead does seem to me like a potentially worthwhile way of buying time, in a lee shore situation, in extremis, where no offing is possible.

And even in deep water, I can imagine situations where the best of a variety of very unappetising options, in a boat which is light but strongly built, might be to get pulled bodily through the wave tops, bow first...

(it seems to me unthinkable to attempt this stern-first, in conditions where any third way might include risk of pitch-pole, or reverse pitch-pole)


So I wonder if anyone has tried something like this, to retrieve a parachute*:

1) pre-Rig a mooring buoy with a pickup handle and distinctive coloration (and a pinger, if you swing that way), either on the periphery of the chute, or to an extension of the rode passing through the centre hole of the canopy to the convex side, safely away from the multiple cords.

In the latter case, a small drogue (like a liferaft sized item) from the float and launched first might make it easier to deploy the system without tangling.

You might even consider fitting water-soluble rings around the body of the chute, particularly at the opening, so it can be launched as a sausage, stretched out straight by the small drogue, and deploy itself progressively once it's safely cleated at full rode length.

The idea here is that you're not fighting a big rode tension as you pay it out, and the risks of serious entanglement when getting it off the bow would presumably be averted.

2) Instead of trying to retrieve the 'chute' when wishing to get underway: attach a carefully judged weight, much less that the buoyancy of the float, to the bitter end of the rode, and jettison the whole kit and caboodle. Optionally attach your Dan buoy (especially if there's no pinger), and use the intervening line for pickup.

Unless you've underestimated the buoyancy of the cords and rode, (and like any such smart-arse idea, this should NOT be tried in earnest until and unless it has been thoroughly debugged in less than survival conditions) it should all hang vertically down, under the buoy.

3) Do some MOb practice under sail to pick up the buoy, and retrieve the system in reverse order.

If using a GPS to find the buoy, don't forget to get an accurate reading on current BEFORE jettisoning, and make sure you've pre-thought the navigational challenges of applying that to the target position.

- - - -

* (should also work for a series drogue, although personally I would be inclined simply to slow down the drift of the boat by judicious use of the engine in astern gear, and winch the bugger in.
If the boat is drifting at 2 - 3 knots under bare pole with the drogue out, it may well be possible to reduce that to perhaps +/- 0.2 - 1 knots using the engine at constant revs, probably better if actively 'driven'

For boats under say 12m, possibly even tail it in, by hand, during the slackening phases of the cycle, using the winch as a snubbing winch)
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Old 01-05-2014, 23:55   #62
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Re: Heaving to

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Thanks for the reply. I've read a couple of the Pardey's books and even met Larry at one of our Yacht Club parties here in Hilo. I have a great deal of respect for them and the information in their books.

The Wharram is a different breed of cat.
After reading "As Long As It's Fun", I don't have any respect for them, but that's me.

There used to be a column I read called "Shut Up And Sing" that was about finding out too much information about celebrities. This is the same thing.

I learned a lot about my trade (I'm a carpenter by trade) from a guy I couldn't stand, and couldn't wait to get away from at the end of each day.

I like how everyone thinks their boat is different. I've noticed how the same thing applies to lawyers.

"What do you think of lawyers?"

"They're all scum!"

"What about your lawyer?"

"Oh, he's different!"
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:12   #63
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Re: Heaving to

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Originally Posted by dpddj View Post
@ Jackdale - On the Glenmore Reservoir?
I have raced occasionally with friends on the reservoir. My instruction is primarily on the West Coast.

On a Nauticat 37 we lost a TV antenna off Cape Scott and retrieved it under sail with that technique. We could get our hands on it by laying on the deck on the leeward side, but getting a grip on its rounded surfaces was tough. A fishing net would have helped.
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Old 02-05-2014, 13:19   #64
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Re: Heaving to

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
After reading "As Long As It's Fun", I don't have any respect for them, but that's me.

There used to be a column I read called "Shut Up And Sing" that was about finding out too much information about celebrities. This is the same thing.

I learned a lot about my trade (I'm a carpenter by trade) from a guy I couldn't stand, and couldn't wait to get away from at the end of each day.

I like how everyone thinks their boat is different. I've noticed how the same thing applies to lawyers.

"What do you think of lawyers?"

"They're all scum!"

"What about your lawyer?"

"Oh, he's different!"
I didn't read that one so I still respect their knowledge.

The Wharram was a club boat, one that I sailed and taught sailing on that would not heave to. If you ever get the opportunity to sail one then they are good fun and you can try to heave to on it as well. Unfortunately this one slipped it's mooring and went aground and is in pieces.
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Old 02-05-2014, 16:58   #65
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Re: Heaving to

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I have raced occasionally with friends on the reservoir. My instruction is primarily on the West Coast.

On a Nauticat 37 we lost a TV antenna off Cape Scott and retrieved it under sail with that technique. We could get our hands on it by laying on the deck on the leeward side, but getting a grip on its rounded surfaces was tough. A fishing net would have helped.
Well, not always...
Sandy caught a 1.34 meter dorado in the Pacific and got so excited she just let the net go. Not pulled or jerked from her hands, she was leaning over the side getting ready, saw the fish and just let go. You've never seem such a dumbstruck expression...
Fortunately we had a gaf too...
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:55   #66
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Re: Heaving to

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....

But I have to grudgingly concede that a para anchor dead ahead does seem to me like a potentially worthwhile way of buying time, in a lee shore situation, in extremis, where no offing is possible.

And even in deep water, I can imagine situations where the best of a variety of very unappetising options, in a boat which is light but strongly built, might be to get pulled bodily through the wave tops, bow first...

...
quoting myself because of an afterthought:

I have to keep reminding myself that most offshore sailors (at least in the Anglosphere) do not share my preference for shallow draft hull-form for extreme conditions in deep water.

I'm not sure I would follow my own advice in anything without some sort of lift keel or centreboard, in other words anything with deeper draft than a stub keel -

I'm not convinced a deep keel yacht would lie in a docile line with the chute's rode, as opposed to needing to be stabilised using a bridle, and lying at a small angle. Possibly if the mast and other windage factors were not forrard ... ?

It would be interesting to hear from someone who has actually tried it, or who cares to trawl through the Drag Device Databook
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:26   #67
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Re: Heaving to

Sadly, this thread has emphasised my ability to Heave Up better than I Heave to.

A lot to learn. Thanks for procedural methods that I will now have to go and practice. A great lesson.
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:13   #68
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Re: Heaving to

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Doing so in the 28' mono understood. I have yet to try it in the 40' cat. Any suggestions? Draws 4'. Boaty?
Particularly for fin/shoal monos and multis their heave to behavior/technique is highly dependent upon the specific boat. We had a long discussion of this here some time ago. I would post the link, but search on the mobile app sux.

Which boat?
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:39   #69
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Re: Heaving to

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Doing so in the 28' mono understood. I have yet to try it in the 40' cat. Any suggestions? Draws 4'. Boaty?
I have sucessfully used the heave-to, sail-to, heave-to method in a lagoon 380. It had a in boom reefing system, so the main was smaller. That might have helped.

The big high roach main and small jib on many cats will take some experimentation.

Some cats also have self-tacking jibs, which makes heaving-to a bit trickier. You have to go forward and lock the jib traveller before heaving -to. I have seen a system for using a barber hauler to hold the jib in place.
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Old 04-05-2014, 15:49   #70
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Re: Heaving to

The "prevented main" heaving-to technique, with the boom well outboard, works well for shoal draft monos, even with appendages -- including rudder(s) -- retracted

It's no accident that I originally thought of this method when manoeuvring a Windsurfer™ to the correct heading, relative to the wind, to get underway.

Windsurfers do not have rudders. Or headsails. You effectively get underway from a hove-to situation, nevertheless.

.. .. They are also about as shoal draft as a hull can ever be.

So it occurs to me it might be just the ticket for the notorious Wharram. Unfortunately I do not have one handy to try !

It's also a great option if you lose or damage a rudder, and/or the headsail is not able to be backed (as jackdale mentions in connection with self tackers) or not hoisted.


I realise it would be considered inconsiderate, but it's conceivable a man (or woman or child) could conceivably fall overboard when the jib was not hoisted, or hoistable.

The ability to heave to with a jib still poled out is another niche application - I think I gave a bit more detail further up the thread but I'm typing in haste just now.
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Old 04-05-2014, 16:50   #71
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pirate Re: Heaving to

The Lagoon 440 last trip I hove to in the standard manner with the wheel 2/3rds over and locked... unfortunately there's only 2 reefs in the main and the 3 webbing straps holding the reef roller cut through at around 40 odd knots and threw everything to crap..
But up till then she balanced nicely..

Andrew... the problem with the small Wharram Tiki's is they sail as fast backwards near enough as forwards.. so short of having someone constantly at the helm to keep her balanced you'll be kangarooing back and forth..
Think that's about the only boat I'd use a drogue on.. maybe..
Though I did sail my Tiki 26 back from Cherbourg to Poole in a SW F7 gusting 8 with full sail... a wild ride.. and did the heads in on a couple of merchant ships as I skipped past them at around 15kts... no auto pilot and I was to scared to let go of the tiller... lmao
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Old 04-05-2014, 18:48   #72
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Re: Heaving to

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
The "prevented main" heaving-to technique, with the boom well outboard, works well for shoal draft monos, even with appendages -- including rudder(s) -- retracted

It's no accident that I originally thought of this method when manoeuvring a Windsurfer™ to the correct heading, relative to the wind, to get underway.
Andrew
Interesting. I've been trying to figure how I might be able to heave to with my 30 foot Nonsuch which is of a catboat design. With a 52 foot unstayed mast way up by the bow it falls off rather rapidly in blow. I was thinking a storm sail rigged at the aft end of the boom with roughly the same area as mast might balance it out more. Though the wishbone boom of the Nonsuch does resemble a windsurfer so maybe the outboard boom technique you mentioned might work in some conditions too.
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Old 04-05-2014, 18:59   #73
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Re: Heaving To

mbianka

Wishbone boom doesn't seem to me to be a factor, pro or con; I've tried it on lots of boats, and not had a fail yet, but the only ones with wishbones have been windsurfers ...

But it would be a challenge, I think, to apply my suggestions with a mast so near the bow.

And (dammit!) I didn't think to try it on the one occasion I've sailed on a cat boat (a dory hull form, Bolger IIRC)

For one thing: do you have a way of rigidly preventing the wishbone from slewing fore & aft, not even a bit? Could be tricky getting enough angle on a 'foreguy', possibly ...

Secondly it's a big ask, I would theorise, putting the 'air rudder' so far ahead of the centre of effort of the underbody.

Certainly with water rudders, they provide the reverse of 'yaw stability' when in that location (as when progressing backwards with a normal rudder)

I would be eternally indebted if you are able to contrive a way to give it a go (at various boom angles, including 90 deg to midline if poss) and report back !
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Old 05-05-2014, 05:05   #74
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Re: Heaving To

Andrew:

I do have a choker line and can snug the wishbone boom right up to the mast. Still think I will need a small piece of canvas like a storm sail on the aft end of the boom and could play with the angle using the mainsheet. I will post about my experiments with this idea. I was thinking Pardey's storm tactic with the sea anchor might work well with the catboat mast arrangement as the bow likes to fall off so much. But, like you and others have mentioned I'd rather keep the canvas on board rather than in the sea if I could.
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Old 05-05-2014, 14:14   #75
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Re: Heaving To

mbianka

Choking the wishbone (by which I understand you mean snugging it to the mast) would help with keeping the sail flat, but what is more important, and essential to the manoeuvre's success, is that when looking down from the masthead, the clew of the main cannot swing towards the centreline of the boat

Looking at the Nonsuch 30 it seems to me it would not be realistic to rig a preventer from the clew to the bow in any sort of breeze, as the angle looks as though it would be too acute?
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