Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-07-2014, 17:03   #1
Registered User
 
2Wind's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 312
Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

There have been several threads on the utility of "heaving to" in recent times. Although I was well versed on the theory having read all about it numerous times, I was inexperienced with it in practice. So my journey to gain experience has begun.

Firstly, I'll state the obvious and say that trying to do this in 10-15kts is one thing, doing it in 25-30kts is another, and I can imagine doing it in 40+, perhpas when you might really be in need of a "break' would be yet another dimension.

So what I have learnt is that my L440 does not jump at the opportunity to sit quietly "hoved". Getting the sailplan to balance is a dark art. Firstly, the leach of the fully set genoa impacts and chaifs on the lower spreader when back winded, so at the very least it needs to be partially furled say at the 70% mark (where it might otherwise be if sailing in 30kts anyway). At this setting, with a fractional setup, a relatively forward mast position, and a large roachy main, the back winded genoa provides insufficient off wind yaw and the main tends to drive the boat to wind.

So options are to reef the main (which would be so if in 20+kts), or play with the traveller. The latter proved interesting in yesterday's light conditions (10kts). With the main sheeted in tight and the traveller centred, the boats would sit at 40-60 degrees and make ever so slowly to windward (lets just say forward of down wind) such that the slick lay out on the windward quarter. Moving the traveller 30cm leawward, saw the boat sit in the 60-90 degree range, where having the traveller 60cm to leaward resulted in further rotation with the boat sitting in the 90-120 degree range. I'm guessing that positioning the slick in the direction of the sea is the key when the weather is up, and that what one does would depend on how you want the beam to take the sea in the given conditions. I'm yet to see how wind strength influences all this, and how one, two, and three reefs in the main change the state of play - I was solo yesterday and too lazy to do it all on my own .

What is clear is that you really need to practice in different conditions as I suspect the strategy will be different each time.

Finaly, I'd be interest in members experience with how much their boat heading fluctuates when hove to. My L440 tends to slowly oscilate over a wide range of perhaps 30+ degrees. I must say, I'd need a lot of experience with this to gain the confidence to go below and have a good nap when caught out in a big blow at sea.

Are there any pearls of experience and wisdom out there?
__________________

__________________
"Second Wind"
Lagoon 440 Hull #30
Brisbane, Australia.
2Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 17:22   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

My experience is that many boats that will heave to in smaller seas will not in heavy seas. The waves just push the bow down. Water is much stronger than wind! The only boats that can counteract this to some extent are very old school; bristol channel cutters etc with the full keel forefoot not cut away. Then when the water pushes the bow, the underwater area attempts to counteract it. As the Pardeys allude to though, even in their type of boat more is needed in rough weather. They talk about the possibility of using bridles and sea anchors.
My opinion is heaving-to is a lunch or rest tactic, and not a storm tactic.
__________________

__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 17:24   #3
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I have always considered that if I hove to it would be after I had exhausted all sail shorting options.

I only practice on my boat with 2 reefed main and about 30-40% genny.

I am not sure of your angle off numbers. I end up pretty close to the wind - the point being to present the bow to the waves not the beam.

In 15-20kts (all I have practiced in) my boat will oscillate. It will "climb" into the wind and "stall" and then it will slowly start climbing into the wind.

However I have also decided (after reading a ton of threads here) that if I have to put the boat in hove to conditions I would use a sea anchor.

I also think that, like shorting the sails, if you wait to hove to or deploy an anchor until you absolutely need it you are likely too late...

(Suggest you read some of the old "Heaving to" and "Storm Tactics" threads as a preview of the many arguments that are about to be duplicated here - LOL)
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 18:47   #4
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in Oriental NC
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 2,912
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

It is a bit of a dark art, if only because every boat behaves differently in different conditions. The general principle, however, that the sail plan needs to be balanced, holds in all cases however and finding what works for your particular boat in varying seas should be a process of balancing the canvas and rudder angle to find the right mix.

I got back a week ago from the Annapolis to Bermuda race (we came in fourth on corrected time much to our utter shock since we were all cruisers), and on the way back, with three of us, we hit a gale with 35+ sustained that just would not quit. We were beating, not close hauled, and by later afternoon were exhausted and threw in the towel and hove to. The main was triple reefed and the cruising jib was furled in 2/3 of the way and the fin keel racer/cruiser settled happy as you please into the perfect motion, about 60-70 degrees off the wind, making about 2 knots on our intended course. It was heaven...no bow pounding and lurching over waves. Yay.

On my watch in the middle of the night a big freighter appeared on the horizon and after several bearing checks appeared on a convergent course. Kept coming closer, weird light pattern that did not give me a clue to her course, and did not answer VHF on 13 or 16. Finally got close enough that I started the engine and shoved her into gear, lunging over waves with the jib still backed, and she passed @75 meters to our stern. Good times.

In any event, I could NOT get the boat to settle into her prior behavior no matter what. The sail trim had not changed at all, and no fiddling with the rudder would bring her back to her prior set. She wanted to go 4-5 knots and that was that. Finally gave in, as the motion was still comfortable, and that's how she stayed for the next 12 hours until the gale blew over. Had I persevered and fiddled with the trim I probably could have brought her back to her previous aspect, but I was just too tired and it was good enough.

It's all a matter of balance...and using the rudder to fine tune it. The jib and main should provide counter acting forces, for the most part, and most of your work should be around finding what works between them. From a rig stress perspective, the less canvas you can carry to achieve the desired orientation, the better. And be very vigilant about chafe of the jib sheets and reefing lines. They can take a beating.

Also, the desired orientation of the boat depends to a degree on the sea state. In classing hove to, at about 2 knots and @70 degrees, the boat just floats up over the waves, the slick calming to a large extent. It's in fact a rather eerie feeling, like being in the eye of a hurricane. Suddenly everything is relatively calm and you're wondering why you were beating the snot out of yourself to make 4 more knots.
__________________
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 19:44   #5
cruiser

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,130
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

Here we go again...

Start with the Pardey book, recognize that they sailed a Bristol Channel Cruiser, but that their premise is sound: any boat can be made to heave to properly, and the goal is to already know what it's going to take for the boat you're standing on when you really need to do it.

Another point that I didn't give much weight to until I tried it is that practice and efficiency are absolutely necessary.
__________________
Jammer Six is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 19:49   #6
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,209
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

L440.. 1/3rds genoa and full reef main..
Set wheel 2/3rds head to wind and sheet main in central.. wait for her to settle then adjust Genoa tautness to suit.. ya gotta play a bit to get it right..
After that its how bads yer Alzheimer's..
Oh.. and Heaving to is the process and Hove to is the (hopeful) result
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 20:07   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 41
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
My experience is that many boats that will heave to in smaller seas will not in heavy seas. The waves just push the bow down. Water is much stronger than wind! The only boats that can counteract this to some extent are very old school; bristol channel cutters etc with the full keel forefoot not cut away. Then when the water pushes the bow, the underwater area attempts to counteract it. As the Pardeys allude to though, even in their type of boat more is needed in rough weather. They talk about the possibility of using bridles and sea anchors.
My opinion is heaving-to is a lunch or rest tactic, and not a storm tactic.
Hi. Your summary of the Pardeys summation of technique for heaving to are very close to the notions they set out to dispell in Storm Tactics Handbook edition three which ive been studying nightly (on bedside table) they document a fair variety of boats with "modern" designs as well as the usual cut away forefoot partial full/fin with or without attached rudder etc.
There is little doubt practice is advised and different designs have different inclinations. Ive been playing with heaving to also and reef both sails in a variety of ways for different conditions

But their findings heavily support use of heaving to with or without para anchor on pennant as the most consistently effective storm strategy available to the broad selection of sailing vessels. They tend to favor storm trisail/storm jib combinations for conditions where they will work and then employ the para anchor (not too big! ) to keep the boat from sailing ahead of her slick and off setting wave action.
I find a very close reading of that book and the later revisions of Heavy Weather Sailing to be consistent in their observation that the data over time shows that running storms (as Moitessier admitted under his breath) is very tough on small crews and results with shocking frequency in broaches/
Porpoising (or...going over the falls in breaking seas)
I find both books working toward finding solutions rather than selling a pet theory..and i find their arguments and the data they utilize compelling.
But i have not hove to on an 8 foot para anchor in the north atlantic!
Till i do, its still a matter of experiment and choosing whom to trust...
__________________
Seacod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 20:16   #8
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,682
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

It's true that is what the Pardey's have written.

There is another school of thought, as well, that might interest you, the use of a Jordan Series Drogue. There is another CF member with a catamaran who has actually used one in anger, sorry, cannot remember who, but a search on the use of that drogue plus catamaran should find you some good information.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 20:30   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

This makes it pretty clear, it's a YouTube video.

__________________
Regors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 20:51   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 647
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I've never been happy with how the boat heaves to. It's a full keel with a cutaway forefoot and cutter rigged. With one exception, I've always hove to under mild conditons and since I wanted to see how the boat would behave under more severe conditions ...I practiced with a full set of sails(rather than reefed) in 20 knots of breeze. My speed through the water was close to 2 knots and the boat was close to 90 degrees to the wind...maybe 80 degrees. I wanted to be closer to the wind, but no matter what adjustment were made I was not able to bring the bow up. With that cutaway forefoot I could probably dowse the backwinded yankee and acheve a better angle to the wind...and seas.

The one time I hove to under severe conditon that lasted for just maybe 10 to 20 minutes was sailing again in 20 knots close hauled with full sails when a 50 knot gust hit and boat heeled over enough to put solid water into the cockpit. In an instant I was able to tack and put the boat into a heave to positon and locked the rudder. I then spent the next few minutes between the mast and the cockpit reefing the main all the while the angle of heel was extreme. I felt safe even with the extreme heel considering I was in protected waters without any serious waves. It's the waves that I worry about and not sure if my efforts would have been successful under different sea conditions.
__________________
lancelot9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 21:05   #11
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Neptune's Gear's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
Boat: Farr Phase 4, 12.8m
Posts: 992
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

The real issue is that not many have experience in really heavy weather. 60 Knots and up for sustained periods in open water.
My boat will heave to OK in up to about 45 Knots, after that she needs help. Practice at low wind speeds is better than none, but my boat behaves totally differently when it's really blowing.
I have used, and will continue to use (if I'm every in those conditions again, which is likely) a parachute on a bridle, like the Pardy's recommend. It works. My para anchor is a w.a. coppins stormfighter, (look them up in google), a 5m dia model, for a 40ft mono cruiser.
Sorry I have no experience of multis in this type of weather.
__________________
Matt Paulin
Neptunes Gear Ltd
www.neptunes-gear.com
Neptune's Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 21:51   #12
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I don't know how others do it but I consider the three variables - main, jib & rudder.

To get as high as possible I start by sheeting the main with traveller up steering as close to the wind as I can. The books say tack into it to backsheet the jib - since I do this with 70% jib or less I haven't found that necessary as I am on the inner car track and the only thing the jib sheet can foul on is the mast as I sheet it later.

I start backsheeting the jib which brings the bow down while adding steering. When I almost "run out" of steering. I lock things off add a little more rudder (so as to create steering to "stall the main" and see how it settles.

The attached diagram says it better than I can but what is important is if you draw a line between the leach and luff of each sail, you will see an angle created.

By pointing up with the main you get as high as you can get, then setting the jib will set the "angle of oscillation" as the main stalls and fills. Minimizing this angle appears to be the goal for "least oscillation"
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	heaving to.gif
Views:	1248
Size:	20.8 KB
ID:	84381  
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 00:21   #13
cruiser

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,130
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

Ex, you're using terms that I've never heard from anyone else.

What is "backsheet"?

You're using two car tracks? One is "inner"?
__________________
Jammer Six is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 01:19   #14
Registered User
 
2Wind's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 312
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

Suspect backsheet = backwinding (the genoa)
Some boats have two genoa track/cars for different size/cut headsails, one inside the other.

I appreciate all the discussion.

Boatie: thanks for the specific "dial in" for the L440.

Didn't previously appreciate that oscillating stalling and making marginal headway was part of this thinking that the boat was supposed to sit quitely, mesmerized by my seamanship! Then again thais is exactly what I've experienced. I guess that the art is in dampening the oscillations, and in setting the attitude of the boat to the sea state.....

As for the circumstances where a drogue or chute is set off the stern whilst effectively "sailing" to windward (hove to), am I correct in assuming this is to further reduce oscillation by both teathering the stern and reducing the capacity of the main to generate lift during the brief periods when more off wind during the oscillation?
Does fouling of the rudder and props become a potential issue if the boat stalls and is driven aft?
A lot to think about here...
__________________
"Second Wind"
Lagoon 440 Hull #30
Brisbane, Australia.
2Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2014, 01:25   #15
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

Yes correct terminology is backwind the jib...

Two sets of tracks is pretty common.

Photo 1 shows the inner track with the sheet winch behind. Photo 2 shows the second track (portside) on the cockpit coaming with the winch in front.

The aft track is a weird set up and I think not part of the original design. The sheet goes through the block then forward to the winch.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2014-06-28 15.03.38.jpg
Views:	267
Size:	410.2 KB
ID:	84389   Click image for larger version

Name:	2014-06-28 15.04.35.jpg
Views:	268
Size:	409.4 KB
ID:	84390  

__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
enc

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Science and tech fun. Cavalier MK2 Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 3 19-08-2012 09:45
Science recycles food - after it's digested avb3 Provisioning: Food & Drink 15 06-07-2011 15:56
New Science - Rogue Wave Prediction avb3 Off Topic Forum 11 20-09-2010 04:54
Hoving-To in a Maxim Cat Nicci Multihull Sailboats 8 28-03-2010 03:59
QUACKERY & JUNK SCIENCE GordMay Health, Safety & Related Gear 13 16-07-2008 19:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.