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Old 09-07-2014, 19:26   #31
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I agree with all in that it is necessary to adjust the three parameters of Jib, Main and Rudder to get a balance, wherein the vessel will oscillate around a heading of perhaps 50 degrees to the wind. I would like to add my own observation that there is another component to consider and that is the side to side ROLL of the vessel. I have found that (at least up to my personal experience of 45 knots of sustained wind speed) the rudder doesn’t make a lot of difference and the ratio of Jib to Main (or Mizzen in our case) sets the vessel heading. If a small amount of sail is up, i.e. both Jib and Main / Mizzen are heavily reefed, the vessel might point where you want it but still roll like an SOB. You will need sufficient sail up to dampen the roll if you are going to enjoy that glass of Chardonnay and you might need to add a little more Jib and Main / Mizzen. As the wind picks up strength you reduce deployed sail accordingly.
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Old 10-07-2014, 19:25   #32
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Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
I guess we can agree to disagree on this Dave.



I also have a bit of experience, and have used a parachute in anger on 2 occasions. In the first one, I would not have wanted to be trying to run downwind/wave with or without a drogue. Large breaking seas, wind up to 80 Knots- gusting higher, seas up to 14m, both independently verified.

The parachute worked well, as the Pardy's say in their book. It took some time and effort to get the boat to sit to it correctly (using a bridle back to a primary sheet winch), but once done, was stable for over 30 hours. We drifted at less than 0.5knots over that period.

The boat is a 40 ft Farr designed fin keeler with spade rudder - about 8-9000kg in cruising trim. The loads on the gear are large, but the standard anchor cleats held. The bowsprit was damaged as the anchor rollers are on the end of it in my boat. I think the loads are no more than being anchored in similar conditions, but they are quite sideways when you use a chute like this, and the sprit was not designed for that. I don't rig it like that anymore.

Recovering the chute when the wind dropped to 30 knots was not easy, but we motored up to the chute and picked it up by a shroud with a boat hook. Then it collasped - you CANNOT pick it up with the rode, as it, still full, will rotate and you'll be trying to lift it. You must collapse it, and then you can drag it aboard like a spinnaker thats been dropped in.

Just my 2c worth. Everyone is free to make their own choices!

I would always support the use of a drogue In running off, I've used the technique several times.

Sea anchors off the bow , no thanks. Too many issues like you had. Poor attachment points , chafe , requiring foredeck work etc. In a breaking wave , significant damage can be done as there is " no give" , also rudder damage can occur

It's personally not my cup of tea nor is it a technique practised by European sailors in the main, if the French dont use it. Then neither would I. ! ! ( they are the superstars of sailing after all )

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Old 10-07-2014, 19:39   #33
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

On the contrary Dave,
There is quite a lot of give if you are hit by a breaking wave - the nylon 100m warp with centenary weights "gives" quite a bit. My parachute has an opening in the centre, controlled by a heavy bungy - designed to open and release some pressure before blowing a panel.
NO foredeck work at all was required to set it - it was rigged before leaving port, and launched, in it's bag, from the cockpit.
If rigged properly, chafe is not a problem. Chafe is just as much an issue on a towed drogue.
I never felt the rudder was in danger - we never moved backwards fast enough to cause any issue.
I have used a drogue as well before, and I still would if my destination was downwind, and I felt conditions were suitable (like sufficient crew to steer etc)
I know of one boat (Charlie Blanchet) that survived 150Knots on one of these chutes - the worst conditions I every heard of a yacht surviving. See the WA coppins website.
Everyone must make their own call, and do what they think is best in their situation. I feel that to discount either option limits your flexibility. You can't run with it if there is a lee shore!
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Old 10-07-2014, 20:46   #34
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Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I find in a storm my destination is always downwind !!!!

I'm amazed you sail with a sea anchor always ready to be deployed. Do you run into survival storms a lot !!!

Yes chafe in a drogue is a. Issue. But it's right beside you in the cockpit. Not way up there on a storm lashed foredeck.

I don't really wish to be in any position to experiment further with my heavy weather experiences !!!

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Old 11-07-2014, 02:47   #35
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I agree, happy if I don't need it again! I set up the drogue before every long, likely to encounter heavy weather passage. Like leaving/returning to NZ, Tasman crossings etc. I lived and sailed south of 40 deg for 40 years. Now moved north to Auckland, and we have had winspeeds up to 70 knots 2x in the last month, although that's pretty unusual this far north!

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Old 11-07-2014, 05:13   #36
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Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

Hi 2WIND,

Before we sailed around New Zealand in our L450 we spent some time in a 40kt blow trying to get her to heave-to. This was however in fairly sheltered seas. What we found very successful was:

- treble reefed main
- traveller fully to leeward and main sheet firmly in,
- when yacht settled then helm 80% to fully to windward
- NO jib.

The L450 settled really nicely about 30-40 deg off the wind, we drifted slowly sidewards but not up or downwind. With the wind angle and fully battened main there was no flog.

No matter what we tried using the jib failed. It usually had too much effect at low speeds and pushed the bow well down to leeward. This cat has significant windage and it really want to turn quickly downwind so the standard keeler technique of backing the jib fails badly!

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Old 11-07-2014, 10:36   #37
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

Just a couple of notes, it was mentioned that somebody has a full keel with a cutaway forefoot. Either you have a full keel or you don't, if the forefoot is cut away its not a full keel. One of the main reason my last three boats have had full keels is because they heave effortlessly and instantly. Modern boats are more difficult to heave because they produce substantially quicker acceleration and lift under reduced sail than old traditional boats. This again is a reason I will never have roller furling. If nothing else roller furling assures that you are flying the wrong sail 99% of the time. Rolled up to 80% you are producing drag not lift. A small flat storm sail is what you need to properly heave to on a modern boat. Triple reefed mains are also suspect as there is still far too much sail area. Get a tri sail if you are on a modern boat and practice every chance you get. One last note, regardless of how well your boat heaves too as sea's increase you loose lift in the trough at some point all boats will need a parachute. The simple solution is to sail with the seasons and you will have a 99.999% chance of never needing any of this, how nice does that sound.
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Old 11-07-2014, 11:09   #38
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

Seems like being setup with the Jordan drogue AND the para-anchor would give you more options when everything went to hell. I don't think either is a guarantee that you will survive the worst of anything.

I've only experimented with heaving to in moderate air ~25 knots. My boat (Pearson Triton) should heave to relatively well I think, and she did. I did see the slick. I do have a hard time imagining the magical slick that the Pardeys talk about, and even if it is that amazing, having control of the location of the slick enough to make a difference. That said, their thoughts about having the bow to waves and taking the action from the front quarters of the boat seem to make a lot of sense vs running, even with a drogue, and having waves break over your stern.

I have exactly 0.00 practical experience with any of this. But have played it out in my head incessantly. I'd like to have both, currently have neither...

I did buy a sweet snatch block this winter though...
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Old 11-07-2014, 13:02   #39
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barefootnavigat View Post
Just a couple of notes, it was mentioned that somebody has a full keel with a cutaway forefoot. Either you have a full keel or you don't, if the forefoot is cut away its not a full keel. One of the main reason my last three boats have had full keels is because they heave effortlessly and instantly. Modern boats are more difficult to heave because they produce substantially quicker acceleration and lift under reduced sail than old traditional boats. This again is a reason I will never have roller furling. If nothing else roller furling assures that you are flying the wrong sail 99% of the time. Rolled up to 80% you are producing drag not lift. A small flat storm sail is what you need to properly heave to on a modern boat. Triple reefed mains are also suspect as there is still far too much sail area. Get a tri sail if you are on a modern boat and practice every chance you get. One last note, regardless of how well your boat heaves too as sea's increase you loose lift in the trough at some point all boats will need a parachute. The simple solution is to sail with the seasons and you will have a 99.999% chance of never needing any of this, how nice does that sound.
I think generally, right or wrong, most users consider a boat to have a type of full keel to have a rudder hung on the keel and it may be of various lengths.

Some definitions have a full keel as running the length of the water line. Even this definition holds for a Cape Dory, Alberg etc style as there is some keel present, albeit only a few inches deep, at the bow waterline.
Dictionary definition:
"Full
A full keel by definition runs the length of at least 50% of the hull. The forward edge curves vertically while the aft edge often connects to a rudder. The main advantage of a full keel are safe grounding and directional stability."
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Old 11-07-2014, 23:09   #40
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

One last comment for me on this thread. The Pardy's are not the only ones to recommend heaving too in storm conditions. Sir Peter Blake used this technique when crossing the Tasman and encountering cyclone David, on Heaths Condor. Hove to with a sea anchor. This was the same storm in which Smackwater Jack was lost. It is an age old technique that has mostly been lost....

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Old 12-07-2014, 03:47   #41
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

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Originally Posted by DavefromNZ View Post
Hi 2WIND,

What we found very successful was:

- treble reefed main
- traveller fully to leeward and main sheet firmly in,
- when yacht settled then helm 80% to fully to windward
- NO jib.

The L450 settled really nicely about 30-40 deg off the wind, we drifted slowly sidewards but not up or downwind. With the wind angle and fully battened main there was no flog.



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Dave,

Thanks for your recomendations. I had wondered about whether to use any headsail with a third reef. I have the first and second set up not the third. I have the cringles in place on the sail and a reefling line lying ready at the boom end but not rigged so as to reduce chaif. I'll set it up next time I'm out and try out your strategy.
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:57   #42
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
One last comment for me on this thread. The Pardy's are not the only ones to recommend heaving too in storm conditions. Sir Peter Blake used this technique when crossing the Tasman and encountering cyclone David, on Heaths Condor. Hove to with a sea anchor. This was the same storm in which Smackwater Jack was lost. It is an age old technique that has mostly been lost....

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This concept confused me earlier on in this thread. What does "Hove to with a sea achor" mean?

Is the sea anchor off the bow?
Is a bridle used and if so how is this balanced
Is there a risk of over running the anchor?

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Old 12-07-2014, 05:32   #43
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

The only time I have tried heaving to in a decent blow on a modern boat, we had to drop the storm jib due to it pushing the bow down to far. We where sitting beam on to the seas with it backed. This was on an S&S 34 mid Tasman in April. I was trying to hold station as a low came through on our way from Nelson to Hobart.

With just the main she pointed up slightly but still sat at probably 70-80 degrees and occasionally down to 90. I was not happy with this but could see no option short of running off toward Auckland and losing days. The big windage of the roller furling headsail can't have helped things, and she suffered from lee helm at times to windward with a small main. A trysail would have been better with it's C of E further aft in this case.

I also tried sailing to windward under storm jib and 3 reefed main but it was too brutal. She was taking an absolute pounding and it was my job to get the boat home in one piece without to many breakages. In retrospect I should probably dropped the main and tried to keep up some speed and steerage to windward with just the storm jib on it's inner stay.

This is one occasion where the pardey method would have been real handy, but no parachute onboard to try it out.

In reality the conditions where not to bad, maybe 40 knots of westerly. If running it would have been OKish, probably not quite drogue conditions. No knockdowns but I considered it a faint possibility in those conditions. We sat there for a day or so then had a good passage to Eden.

Another meothod of heaving to that I hadn't heard of before was heaving to by the stern, using just the backed headsail. The boat lies bow down, maybe 120ish with the stern up into the wind. you still lash the helm to lee. and it seems to me that a drogue could be set of the quarter as well, possibly even a series drogue. Certainly less rolling than running dead downwind.

We sat like that (without the drogue) for a few hours on a 64 foot schooner on our way to chile from Hobart. Pretty comfortable but we did get a decent wave strike that shook things up... the video of this can be seen here if my attachment doesn't work.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:47   #44
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pirate Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

Hmmmmm... not sure I'm to keen on the stern to method you've shown.. looks like that strike was beam on..
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Old 12-07-2014, 06:19   #45
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "Science" and the "Art".

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Hmmmmm... not sure I'm to keen on the stern to method you've shown.. looks like that strike was beam on..
Well spotted, It was, we where lying pretty much beam on at that point with just the backed storm jib. I think the schooner rigs mainmast helped balance the windage forward of the jib. We probably needed more sail up, maybe a scrap of the yankee or the staysail instead of the storm jib. The give away is the way she rolled back to windward after the wave passed.

This wave was definitely a bit of a rogue, I was very lucky to catch it on the camera! The sea state was not really very bad at all. The owner has more experience than anyone I've ever met. A superb seaman and sailor, he was pretty comfortable with it, and was playing with different ideas.

I wouldn't recommend it for survival stuff either, but nor would I recommend heaving to normally, but I am keen to try it out again on a more standard sloop sometime in more moderate weather. It could be handy when you want to park but cant be bothered with the main.

I think a drogue or sea anchor is the only way you can make sure a hove to or slowly moving vessel doesn't end up beam on to a bigger sea in a real blow. The waves orbital currents are just too strong for the sails to fight. This doesn't take away from it's usefulness in moderate conditions.

The only alternative I see to some sort of drag device is enough speed and momentum to get the foils working and sail her either upwind or surf her downwind.
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