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Old 04-07-2014, 02:33   #16
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

The way I understand it, it's to stop fore-reaching completely, and make the boat stay directly behind the slick. The magic is in the slick.
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Old 04-07-2014, 03:31   #17
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Seacod.
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Old 04-07-2014, 04:15   #18
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

If hove 2, a drogue is not used, a drogue is used to slow a boat running before the wind and is set off the stern/sterns. A parachute is normally set off the bow, often via a bridle, and is used to hold her head to wind, or to assist holding her in the hove to position. I would never set a parachute off the stern....

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Old 04-07-2014, 07:49   #19
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Two sets of tracks is pretty common.
I'll be go to hell. Shows how provincial my sailing has been. Thanks for the pictures.
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Old 04-07-2014, 16:34   #20
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I have hove too in a gale off Cape Flattery Jammer. We were a crew of two. One member starts having a heart attack. Only one left to access the situation, turn the boat around and make it into port. Heaving too in big swells allowed me to collect my composure and figure out the right path. I guess that is why I am such a fan.
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Old 04-07-2014, 21:42   #21
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Seacod.
Thank you Gord. Nice people hear good place to listen and learn....
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:09   #22
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Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Hi. Your summary of the Pardeys summation of technique for heaving to are very close to the notions they set out to dispell in Storm Tactics Handbook edition three which ive been studying nightly (on bedside table) they document a fair variety of boats with "modern" designs as well as the usual cut away forefoot partial full/fin with or without attached rudder etc.
There is little doubt practice is advised and different designs have different inclinations. Ive been playing with heaving to also and reef both sails in a variety of ways for different conditions

But their findings heavily support use of heaving to with or without para anchor on pennant as the most consistently effective storm strategy available to the broad selection of sailing vessels. They tend to favor storm trisail/storm jib combinations for conditions where they will work and then employ the para anchor (not too big! ) to keep the boat from sailing ahead of her slick and off setting wave action.
I find a very close reading of that book and the later revisions of Heavy Weather Sailing to be consistent in their observation that the data over time shows that running storms (as Moitessier admitted under his breath) is very tough on small crews and results with shocking frequency in broaches/
Porpoising (or...going over the falls in breaking seas)
I find both books working toward finding solutions rather than selling a pet theory..and i find their arguments and the data they utilize compelling.
But i have not hove to on an 8 foot para anchor in the north atlantic!
Till i do, its still a matter of experiment and choosing whom to trust...

As I have some experience , I am definitely not a fan of heaving to as a survival storm technique. I can see huge amounts of issues with sea anchors on modern boats. Without a sea anchor to hold up the bow, most modern designs struggle to avoid tacking in a confused sea, powering up and sailing away in an uncontrolled fashion , adding a sea anchor is a huge additional worry , lack of Samson posts, issue with retrieval , chafe, necessitating bow trips , potential for rudder damage, etc.

Modern spade rudders and keels are far more hydrodynamically efficient , hence broaching is far less of an issue.

Breaking seas are a different issue, if you get caught , no technique will protect you , other then the one that minimises converging velocity.

Running before a storm trailing wraps or drogues in my experience is a better technique for modern vessels. in some cases even the autopilot can be engaged.

The idea of leaving the boat to basically fend for itself fills me with horror. I would only do it, if forced to, in extremis.

I have several well known heavy weather books, they do not agree with each other , for example Dashewhas a different perspective.

Personally I see "jogging" under engine to be quite a useful technique for the modern yacht. I've had good experiences of it.

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Old 05-07-2014, 21:24   #23
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

Hi Dave ;
Interesting, your objections were some of the points addressed in the Pardee book. They went to a fair amount of trouble to draw on the experiences of other cruisers handling a variety of hull forms. They most certainly do not leave the boat to "care for itself" which I interpret to mean letting the boat drift beam to (wallowing under bare pole) which was a technique used by many in the earliest editions of "Heavy Weather Sailing" with largely scary results.
The findings on the original 79 fastnet mess revealed some interesting results noted in the Pardee book . Running downwind which was made a bit famous by Moitessier's southern ocean run. Most folks who have done it with small crews find it tough to do for long periods. Anyway each skipper makes their own call in their time and place...and they will live according to the results.
About recovering a chute....the Pardees address that in detail as well. Real life accounts of recovering series Drogues are not exactly fun and games...the book is full of information on balancing the boat in various snotty conditions prior to deploying a chute which by itself is worth study. Anyway thanks to all who have responded its worthwhile to here your experiences .
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Old 05-07-2014, 21:57   #24
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

The primary issue that is creating your difficulties is the use of the genoa. In most conditions I've found the most efficient balance point is reached with a jib no larger than a 110%. Roll up the genoa, run closehauled and then heave to. It's the only way I've found to BALANCE the sailplan, full main or reefed.

I do not have experience in survival conditions, but this worked for us in winds up to 25 knots gusting to 30, 7 foot seas at 7 seconds off the coast of Northern California.

Good luck.
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Old 06-07-2014, 00:16   #25
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I appreciate all your input.

I'm thinking that there are broadly two different circumstances where I might use this skill.

1. When under full or one reef sail plan and a need arises where I want to stop the boat (Reefing single handed, MOB, breakage, illness, injury, out of champaigne and need to locate the hidden stock).
2. In more significant weather where that sails are already heavily reefed in circumstances of exhaustion, breakage, or safety.

Learning the "how to" and the trim strategy for 1. will I suspect be easier than for 2. given that more frequent opportunity exists for lighter condition. Pleasingly such conditions are also much more forgiving when bad choices are made by the inexperienced. Ironically, need for skill in severe conditions is likely to be more valuable yet harder to achieve. Futher, few are going to purposely head out into difficult 35-40+kt conditions as an "exercise", advantageous as it might nevertheless be. I can just see myself motoring past Air Sea Rescue on my way out of harbour, calling them up and letting them know what I'm up to...just in case.

How good a simulation setting the 3rd reef and hoving to in moderate conditions is in terms of understanding boat behaviour is the question, i guess.

It's ironic that the experienced probably became experienced by successfully (or otherwise) exposing their inexperience to the elements at some time or another. Only the lucky achieve experience without scars.

As for drogues and parachutes, I've put this off until I consider passage sailing as opposed to coastal sailing. Perhaps, discussion as to the wisdom of this decision is a thread in it's own right.
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Old 06-07-2014, 02:12   #26
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Futher, few are going to purposely head out into difficult 35-40+kt conditions as an "exercise", advantageous as it might nevertheless be. I can just see myself motoring past Air Sea Rescue on my way out of harbour, calling them up and letting them know what I'm up to...just in case.
Well... I have and I do.

Aside from the reefing training there is the navigation training. After reefing the first thing to do before the storm hits is get a bearing and not get lost when the visibility goes down.

We were in a passage race in a J24 and the weather came down pretty bad. We already had the small jib up and I suggested dropping it. I also suggested the heading and staying "up" - When the storm passed 1 boat was dismasted and the fleet was anywhere from a mile to 3 miles downwind (away from the mark) - We passed every boat in our class.

There is an overwhelming tendency to bear away in storms.

Another time in company we emerged from the storm to find the other boat 1/2 mile off (downwind) and almost aground.

Thunderstorms are great because you get 35-45 knot winds and you know it's gonna end in 45 minutes max.

Perfect training for "moderate" weather.
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Old 06-07-2014, 02:34   #27
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Thunderstorms are great because you get 35-45 knot winds and you know it's gonna end in 45 minutes max.

Perfect training for "moderate" weather.
Good stories. What about that lightening! What's you strategy there?
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Old 06-07-2014, 02:54   #28
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Good stories. What about that lightening! What's you strategy there?
Well there is no strategy basically. I have always wondered what it would be like to be struck at the mast but I don't obsess about it. We have been very close to strikes though.

I reckon the boat could get picked out of the boats in mooring or it could find lonely ol' me out in the channel or harbor.

And lightning won't strike the tallest boat and there isn't safety in numbers and all that. We had a J24 picked out by lightning in our mooring field with many taller ships around - sank in 45 minutes.

There is a ton of theory and discussion about lightning in the archives and I believe in the science but I haven't put in any lighting protection system or anything. My boat has connecting rods from the chainplates through the cabin to the bottom of the hull with SS plates on the outside- I like to think the lightning will take the path of least resistance and goes to ground that way. OTOH - it could blow the plates off and the boat sinks <sigh>
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Old 06-07-2014, 19:08   #29
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

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Hi Dave ;
Interesting, your objections were some of the points addressed in the Pardee book. They went to a fair amount of trouble to draw on the experiences of other cruisers handling a variety of hull forms. They most certainly do not leave the boat to "care for itself" which I interpret to mean letting the boat drift beam to (wallowing under bare pole) which was a technique used by many in the earliest editions of "Heavy Weather Sailing" with largely scary results.
The findings on the original 79 fastnet mess revealed some interesting results noted in the Pardee book . Running downwind which was made a bit famous by Moitessier's southern ocean run. Most folks who have done it with small crews find it tough to do for long periods. Anyway each skipper makes their own call in their time and place...and they will live according to the results.
About recovering a chute....the Pardees address that in detail as well. Real life accounts of recovering series Drogues are not exactly fun and games...the book is full of information on balancing the boat in various snotty conditions prior to deploying a chute which by itself is worth study. Anyway thanks to all who have responded its worthwhile to here your experiences .

We need to be careful with terminology here. My comments purely refer to parachute anchors deployed from the bow, purely to hold the bugs up to the wind in the hove to position.

I have used stern drogues which are to slow but not stop the boat and as indicated are deployed and retrieved from the stern.

In my experience , especially in monohulls , deploying sea anchors as a storm survival is rare.

I make this point from experience, relying, in a survival storm , with wave trains from different directions, on remaining hove to is a dubious strategy in modern lightly immersed canoe bodied yachts.

In any seaway , where I could reliably hove to, I could also actually sail the boat.

I reality see nothing in the recent editions that's changes things.

Dave
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Old 06-07-2014, 19:36   #30
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Re: Heaving and Hoving: The "science" and the "art".

I guess we can agree to disagree on this Dave.

I also have a bit of experience, and have used a parachute in anger on 2 occasions. In the first one, I would not have wanted to be trying to run downwind/wave with or without a drogue. Large breaking seas, wind up to 80 Knots- gusting higher, seas up to 14m, both independently verified.
The parachute worked well, as the Pardy's say in their book. It took some time and effort to get the boat to sit to it correctly (using a bridle back to a primary sheet winch), but once done, was stable for over 30 hours. We drifted at less than 0.5knots over that period.
The boat is a 40 ft Farr designed fin keeler with spade rudder - about 8-9000kg in cruising trim. The loads on the gear are large, but the standard anchor cleats held. The bowsprit was damaged as the anchor rollers are on the end of it in my boat. I think the loads are no more than being anchored in similar conditions, but they are quite sideways when you use a chute like this, and the sprit was not designed for that. I don't rig it like that anymore.
Recovering the chute when the wind dropped to 30 knots was not easy, but we motored up to the chute and picked it up by a shroud with a boat hook. Then it collasped - you CANNOT pick it up with the rode, as it, still full, will rotate and you'll be trying to lift it. You must collapse it, and then you can drag it aboard like a spinnaker thats been dropped in.
Just my 2c worth. Everyone is free to make their own choices!
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