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Old 15-09-2016, 22:54   #91
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

A sudden squall can knock down a boat hove-to in the standard main/backwinded jib configuration. A boat hove-to with main only is much harder to knock down.

A boat with jib only cannot heave-to and may require the smallest of storm jibs (or stay sail) to forereach or run . Switching down to that smallest-of-storm-jibs, by the time it's needed, is the trick.
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Old 15-09-2016, 23:17   #92
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
There is a great book called south seas vagabond. Jonny Wray used to swear by heaving too, with whale oil. Worked well for him for years until he git caught in a cyclone and rolled while hove too. After rolling he ran off towing his his spars, mainsail and anythibg else while he baled out the water and repaired the old wooden boat. After that he said running off towing everything was the ultimate storm technique. Eventually either while hove to the sails will shred or you will end up nearer beam on during the bigger seas, unless you combine it with a drag device like the pardeys to help hold the bow up.

There is another weird way to heave too, just back the headsail and drop the main, keep the helm up. Its like heaving too by the stern. It kind of works, certainly damps the roll and makes a nice slick. But the bow ends up downwind. I can see this being useful with a series drogue off the stern quarter, but I havent tried it this way, but if it didnt work it would be easy enough to roll away the headsail and centre the rudder.

Video of us sitting this way in a mild southern ocean frontal passage here.

https://youtu.be/CJMIBbt2svo

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Originally Posted by The Smokester View Post
A sudden squall can knock down a boat hove-to in the standard main/backwinded jib configuration. A boat hove-to with main only is much harder to knock down.

A boat with jib only cannot heave-to and may require the smallest of storm jibs (or stay sail) to forereach or run . Switching down to that smallest-of-storm-jibs, by the time it's needed, is the trick.
Oops. Just saw Snowpetrel's post after I posted and wasn't trying to start an argument, I swear. When I tried heaving-to in 50kn+ with heavy-weather storm sail it threatened to carry the rig away and I couldn't stop the flapping. For sure, I would have loved to have the smaller storm jib up, but my autopilot couldn't keep up so I need to continue to hand steer downwind.

Anyway, Stormpetrel, could you describe more fully how you heave-to with jib only. How do you set the rudder? How do you keep the jib from shredding?
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Old 16-09-2016, 02:52   #93
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Originally Posted by The Smokester View Post
Oops. Just saw Snowpetrel's post after I posted and wasn't trying to start an argument, I swear. When I tried heaving-to in 50kn+ with heavy-weather storm sail it threatened to carry the rig away and I couldn't stop the flapping. For sure, I would have loved to have the smaller storm jib up, but my autopilot couldn't keep up so I need to continue to hand steer downwind.

Anyway, Stormpetrel, could you describe more fully how you heave-to with jib only. How do you set the rudder? How do you keep the jib from shredding?
How big is your storm jib?
My boat ... 39 foot... nominal 8 tonnes.... came with a 150 sq foot storm jib.

First time I used it in anger I thought...hmmm... a bit big.

Spoke to my sailmaker..Col Anderson of Hood -now Doyle - in Melb .. top bloke... he said was a 'pre Fastnet' and made me a 100 sq ft one.

Arrived in Wellington NZ some time later thinking... 'still a bit too powerful'....

Spoke to the local sailmakers ' in Cook Strait on your boat we would have a 50 sq foot jib...'

So that is what I now have, made by Tony Thornburrow in Tauranga, another top bloke.

It is what it is meant to be, the other two are now working sails for when its 'just a bit fresh'.

I have never tried to heave to under it alone..... but not all jibs are equal...
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Old 16-09-2016, 03:55   #94
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Just a guess, but i would think that trying to heave to under jib alone would create a balancing problem. You do not need to have a backwinded jib to heave to. I hove to on a cross Atlantic in 50+ winds with a handkerchief of a main and a bit of staysail, just enough to balance the helm tied down upwind. She sat very nicely through the night. I have a storm sail, but it would have been too big for this, my in-mast furler allowed for only a smidgen of the main to go out and keep the boat balanced.
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Old 16-09-2016, 05:28   #95
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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Oops. Just saw Snowpetrel's post after I posted and wasn't trying to start an argument, I swear. (...)

Anyway, Stormpetrel, could you describe more fully how you heave-to with jib only. How do you set the rudder? How do you keep the jib from shredding?
Ha Smokester, I hope I am not that scary!

It was an unusual technique Dave used on Blizzard, he is one of the most experienced offshore sailers I know, so I pay good attention to what he does. Anyway he just dropped everything except the backed storm jib and set the helm to steer her into the wind. Instead of lying with her bow up into the weather she lay with her stern up and bow downwind slightly. It was pretty comfortable.

On the schooner I would have probably triple reefed the main and tried to keep the nose up a bit, but it worked Ok except for that one big wave that came through.



Interestingly he got caught in an extremely nasty blow deep south. The only thing that worked for him was lying a hull. The rig was vibrating so badly under bare poles that it undid a turnbuckle, and trying to run downwind under barepoles she was felt like she had a spinnaker up in 35 knots. He didnt use a drogue, but I thing he tried warps. I'll have to quiz him about it again.

Anyway this is an untested method. I can see some potential, but at this stage I wouldn't reccomend it, simply because there is no body of knowledge about how it works out. Its sure nice to be able to drop the main and just play with a small headsail. And I see it being easy to transition into normal downwind storm tactics. And it may work well with a drogue or series drogue off the windward stern quarter?

On balance I think heaving too, in general is a great gale technique, but I don't really favour it as a storm technique. I tend to runboff with a drogue or forereach. But every boat is different, and so is every storm.

Here a video of the trip from Hobart to Pueto Montt, Chile

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Old 16-09-2016, 05:33   #96
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Good story on the storm jibs Ping, it is scary how much power they can develop.. I quite like having a real big corner patch on my furler, then I just roll her up so just the big corner patch is left out and thats me sorted. If it gets nastier it is easy to roll away a bit more, or get rid of it all together. Of course the unit needs to be solid, with a very strong furling line that needs to be properly cleated!

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Old 16-09-2016, 08:24   #97
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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On balance I think heaving too, in general is a great gale technique, but I don't really favour it as a storm technique. I tend to runboff with a drogue or forereach. But every boat is different, and so is every storm.
That alternative heave to approach (in the drawing) looks interesting since the boat has stern to the wind, and you can therefore maybe trim the system easily between having more or less sail up and/or drogue out. Taking a long series drogue back in may not be easy, but otherwise trimming this set-up seems quite flexible. You could start with one trim and change it when the storm becomes more violent.
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Old 16-09-2016, 08:30   #98
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Great thread. Lots of good info. I try to keep practicing heaving to in ever increasing wind and waves. At first someone told me you can not heave to with a fin keel. Not true. Also in playing around I have hove to with a jib only, was not in very heavy weather though.

I was planning on heading out into the Gulf Stream over Labor Day weekend to practice heaving to in some heavier seas. We had tropical storm Hermine coming through so I stayed at dock. It was way too challenging out at sea even days afterwards. I did get out on the local sound a few days afterwards for a beautiful day of sailing. Was hove to at lunch time and had another boat sail by closely to see if we were OK. I guess he saw us "parked" with the jib back winded and thought we were having troubles.

Not sure yet what the limits are for my boat, but I do think it is a great tool to keep practicing. Thanks for all the good posts.
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Old 16-09-2016, 08:38   #99
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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That alternative heave to approach (in the drawing) (...)
An alternative to heaving to. Not alternative heave to.

Running with a drogue.

b.
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Old 16-09-2016, 09:22   #100
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
...It was an unusual technique Dave used on Blizzard, he is one of the most experienced offshore sailers I know, so I pay good attention to what he does. Anyway he just dropped everything except the backed storm jib and set the helm to steer her into the wind. Instead of lying with her bow up into the weather she lay with her stern up and bow downwind slightly. It was pretty comfortable...
OK. Thanks. Good diagram and videos. Got it.

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How big is your storm jib?...
Yes. At some point even a hankerchief if too much. My storm jib is about (2/3)^2 the staysail in area...Staysail is offshore race compliant for a storm jib so actual storm jib is even smaller.
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Old 16-09-2016, 09:41   #101
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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An alternative to heaving to. Not alternative heave to.

Running with a drogue.

b.
Ok, that is probably the correct naming policy. The described approach of using sails and rudder to drive the boat somewhat sideways when drifting downwind bears however some resemblance to heaving to. Maybe Snowpetrel has a name for it.
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Old 16-09-2016, 09:58   #102
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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Ok, that is probably the correct naming policy. The described approach of using sails and rudder to drive the boat somewhat sideways when drifting downwind bears however some resemblance to heaving to. Maybe Snowpetrel has a name for it.
Oh yes. Whenever the wind goes above 50kn the first thing to reach for is a good dictionary.
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Old 16-09-2016, 15:45   #103
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Hove to, as in we were hove too, we are hove to..

heave to as in we are about to heave to, when do you heave to..

Heaving to, as in we are heaving to now..

Its a weird expression.

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Old 16-09-2016, 16:10   #104
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Hove to, as in we were hove too, we are hove to..

heave to as in we are about to heave to, when do you heave to..

Heaving to, as in we are heaving to now..

Its a weird expression.

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What's weird about it?

bear away/bore away/bearing away

and many similar expressions.
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Old 16-09-2016, 16:59   #105
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

^^ Ha, indeed! My english language theory isnt up to analyzing these ?verbs?

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