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Old 18-09-2016, 17:14   #151
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Right!

The SOED ( made from reconstituted tree bones ) gives 6 uses of the verb 'Heave'... just to lift, haul up, cause to swell or rise up, etc

Not one of them is 'to stop'... you have to go to Hove for that..... (ME, origin unknown). 3 meanings given, #2 being ' to wait, linger, stay, remain' which is what you are doing when hove to.

And lets stop quoting revisionist internet dictionaries which any man and his dog can edit.
Wrong!

The verb is "heave to". The simple past and past participles are "hove to".

NOT "hove to"!

Oxford English Dictionary:

"Phrasal Verbs

HEAVE TO

(of a boat or ship) come to a stop, especially by turning across the wind leaving the headsail backed.

‘he hove to and dropped anchor’" [simple past tense]


And:


THE
SAILOR'S WORD-BOOK:

AN ALPHABETICAL DIGEST
OF
NAUTICAL TERMS,


BY THE LATE

ADMIRAL W. H. SMYTH,
K.S.F., D.C.L., &c.:

1867

"HEAVE-TO, To. To put a vessel in the position of lying-to, by adjusting her sails so as to counteract each other, and thereby check her way, or keep her perfectly still. In a gale, it implies to set merely enough sail to steady the ship; the aim being to keep the sea on the weather bow whilst the rudder has but little influence, the sail is chiefly set on the main and mizen-mast; as hove-to under a close-reefed main-topsail, or main-trysail, or driver. It is customary in a foul wind gale, and a last resource in a fair one."

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26000...-h/26000-h.htm

You'll find the same in Falconer's. No "Internet revisionist dictionaries" here!!
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Old 18-09-2016, 17:21   #152
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

The Normans that invaded England in 1066 came from Normandy in Northern France. However, they were originally Vikings from Scandinavia. At the beginning of the tenth century, the French King, Charles the Simple, had given some land in the North of France to a Viking chief named Rollo.Apr 8, 2014
The Normans - Who were the Normans? | HistoryOnTheNet
Normans =norse meaning "north men"

The history of the English language really started with the arrival of three Germanic tribes who invaded Britain during the 5th century AD. These tribes, the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes, crossed the North Sea from what today is Denmark and northern Germany.
History of the English Language | English Club

That's a 2 second google.

How does language help us to "heave to"? Maybe not at all. And I get to see an interesting side of some great CFERS
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Old 18-09-2016, 18:08   #153
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming View Post

(...)

How does language help us to "heave to"? Maybe not at all. And I get to see an interesting side of some great CFERS
Now, again!

You mean the thing in Minnesota or CFers?

And someone says English is a simplified French ...

Sure, simplified, compared to Chinese ... ;-)

"A tack is a simplified gybe."

b.
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Old 18-09-2016, 18:31   #154
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pirate Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post

"A tack is a simplified gybe."

b.
Sure its not a dyslexic assault..??
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Old 18-09-2016, 18:35   #155
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Wrong!

The verb is "heave to". The simple past and past participles are "hove to".

NOT "hove to"!

Oxford English Dictionary:

"Phrasal Verbs

HEAVE TO

(of a boat or ship) come to a stop, especially by turning across the wind leaving the headsail backed.

‘he hove to and dropped anchor’" [simple past tense]


And:


THE
SAILOR'S WORD-BOOK:

AN ALPHABETICAL DIGEST
OF
NAUTICAL TERMS,


BY THE LATE

ADMIRAL W. H. SMYTH,
K.S.F., D.C.L., &c.:

1867

"HEAVE-TO, To. To put a vessel in the position of lying-to, by adjusting her sails so as to counteract each other, and thereby check her way, or keep her perfectly still. In a gale, it implies to set merely enough sail to steady the ship; the aim being to keep the sea on the weather bow whilst the rudder has but little influence, the sail is chiefly set on the main and mizen-mast; as hove-to under a close-reefed main-topsail, or main-trysail, or driver. It is customary in a foul wind gale, and a last resource in a fair one."

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26000...-h/26000-h.htm

You'll find the same in Falconer's. No "Internet revisionist dictionaries" here!!
Ooooh... I'm 'wrong' no less... golly

Refer back to my earlier post and see what Smyth sez of the word 'hove' and its origins
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Old 18-09-2016, 18:45   #156
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pirate Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Now classify 'Fair Wind Gale'..
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/fair-wi...le-ipa/317231/
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Old 19-09-2016, 00:02   #157
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
And lets stop quoting revisionist internet dictionaries which any man and his dog can edit.
Hmm ... benefits of internet dictionaries include:


* they may include the latest research (e.g. parts of en.wiktionary.org benefit from academics doing cutting edge research on etymology);


* they may avoid errors and fill gaps that have become enshrined in dead tree dictionaries (e.g. try to find an entry for the nautical carpentry term 'winnet' in any dead tree dictionary);


* they (and digital versions of some dead tree dictionaries) may be searched more easily and in more advanced ways than dead tree versions;


* several of the internet dictionaries are well-curated, such that vandalism is not tolerated and quickly repaired;




To get back to 'heave to/hove to':


1. a big component of the limits of any particular vessel being 'heaved to' surely relates to the underwater body of the vessel - e.g. whether it has a submersed forefoot versus a canoe body with a blade sticking down. No prizes for guessing some of the other components.


2. in analysis of heaved to/hove to, I think too much attention has been paid to 'heave/hove' and not enough attention to 'to'. And I don't mean just in this CF thread. I include the dead tree dictionaries and online dictionaries.


To explain further: in the 18th century usage, 'bring to', 'come to', 'heave to', and 'hove to' all have in common the sense that the ship is brought to a standstill, more or less.


In most but not all of the instances I've examined, having the stem of the ship pointing into the wind are implied or explicit.


The verbal portions - bring, come, lie, heave - are action words. The 'hove' to which El Ping refers is probably the ancestor of the verb 'to hover' - it's an action word relating to maintaining a static position above a surface.


The 'to' seems key to the sense or significance of the verbs 'bring to', 'come to', 'heave to', 'lie to'.


My initial search through the extensive section in OED on 'to' has not brought illumination in the sense that I can find no reference in OED that relates 'to' to the ideas of standstill, halt, or stop. It's tempting to think that 'to' might just mean 'to the wind' and not 'halt, stop, standstill'. I have found no explicit recognition of that either.
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Old 19-09-2016, 00:12   #158
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Ooooh... I'm 'wrong' no less... golly

Refer back to my earlier post and see what Smyth sez of the word 'hove' and its origins
No one disagrees that there is a word "to hove". But that's a different word. There is no word "to hove to." It's "to heave to"

To heave to.
I heave to.
I will heave to tomorrow.
Yesterday, I hove to.
We were standing hove-to.


You don't believe Wiktionary, although Wiktionary is exactly correct in this case. So look at the OED, Falconer, and Smyth, which are all in agreement with Wiktionary about this.


It's just like the word "to heave down", which is an old word for "careen". To heave down, hove down, have hove down.


By the way, you were denigrating online resources which "anyone can edit", but Wikipedia rates better at accuracy and completeness of citations than print encyclopedias. All secondary sources are flawed and contain errors, and some articles are better than others, but Wikipedia is amazingly good. Anyone can write some kind of b*****t, but there are hundreds of other people who will correct it, and usually the truth wins out in the end. It's an incredibly powerful method of collecting knowledge. See: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/08/0...ree-languages/
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Old 19-09-2016, 01:17   #159
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

I wish you all well with your spanish irregular verbs.. Ser Conjugation - All Spanish Verb Forms With Audio

'To stop' comes from hove not from heave....

Hover is an 'as well as' not an ' instead of' .....

While it is the norm for both 'steam' ships and sailing vessels to heave to 'head to weather' if there is weather in settled conditions they can heave to any which way they want. Case in point is 'Harold' and 'Martha' in the movie 'Martha' when Martha 'crosses the T'.
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Old 19-09-2016, 01:24   #160
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
I wish you all well with your spanish irregular verbs.. Ser Conjugation - All Spanish Verb Forms With Audio

'To stop' comes from hove not from heave....

Hover is an 'as well as' not an ' instead of' .....

While it is the norm for both 'steam' ships and sailing vessels to heave to 'head to weather' if there is weather in settled conditions they can heave to any which way they want. Case in point is 'Harold' and 'Martha' in the movie 'Martha' when Martha 'crosses the T'.
What makes you think "to stop" has anything to do with it? You just made up that connection.

But anyway, I see you're using the word correctly now. As I'm sure you always did before Barny started confusing you!



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Old 19-09-2016, 01:34   #161
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
What makes you think "to stop" has anything to do with it? You just made up that connection.

But anyway, I see you're using the word correctly now. As I'm sure you always did before Barny started confusing you!



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So what on earth do you think it means?

A ship fires a shot across your bows and orders you to 'heave to'. What do you do?... sensible people would stop their ship.

You are in a yacht in some heavy going... you decide to 'heave to'.... what do you hope to achieve? Most of us would be doing our best to stop our ship so she stopped pounding and at the same time didn't run off before the storm onto a lee shore.......
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Old 19-09-2016, 02:15   #162
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post

So what on earth do you think it means?

A ship fires a shot across your bows and orders you to 'heave to'. What do you do?... sensible people would stop their ship.

You are in a yacht in some heavy going... you decide to 'heave to'.... what do you hope to achieve? Most of us would be doing our best to stop our ship so she stopped pounding and at the same time didn't run off before the storm onto a lee shore.......
"Heave to" is not a synonym for "stop", and "heave to" comes from "heave", not "hove", as any dictionary, printed or online will tell you.

Heaving to is one method of stopping a ship, not stopping itself. To "bring up" or "bring up all standing" is another (and less pleasant) way to stop a ship, but heaving-to and bringing up all standing are completely different maneuvers.

"Heave" in "heave-to" is no more derived from any word for "stop", than is "bring" in "bring up". It's figurative. "Heave" is Germanic "heben" - to "lift". But it was used figuratively to create new words over the centuries with all kinds of different meanings, some of them even contradictory to the original meaning of the root. Like "heave down", which is an oxymoron if you take the root literally.


I do note that you're using the word correctly now, "to heave to", not "to hove to".

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Old 19-09-2016, 02:54   #163
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Broader nautical use of "heave/heaving/hove"
Lot's more than just heaving to

Heave to | Define Heave to at Dictionary.com


heave
...
verb (used with object)
Nautical.

to move into a certain position or situation:
to heave a vessel aback.
to move in a certain direction:
Heave the capstan around! Heave up the anchor!

...
verb (used without object), heaved or (especially Nautical) hove; heaving.
14.
Nautical.
to move in a certain direction or into a certain position or situation:
heave about; heave alongside; heave in stays.
...

Verb phrases
20.
heave down, Nautical. to careen (a vessel).

21.
heave out, Nautical.
to shake loose (a reef taken in a sail).
to loosen (a sail) from its gaskets in order to set it.

22.
heave to,
Nautical. to stop the headway of (a vessel), especially by bringing the head to the wind and trimming the sails so that they act against one another.
to come to a halt.

Idioms
23.
heave ho, (an exclamation used by sailors, as when heaving the anchor up.)
24.
heave in sight, to rise to view, as from below the horizon:
The ship hove in sight as dawn began to break.
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Old 19-09-2016, 03:15   #164
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

Fascinating discussion, way out of my league in the grammar stakes.

But to me it seems very possible that the term "hove to the wind" (meaning stopped by the wind) was shortened to hove to, and corrupted to heave to by some users and some dialects and at some stage formalised into the current forms.

Given that there are similar old terms like "full and by (the wind)", "sailing close to the wind" and even norse terms such as the "by the wind hitch" (or at least thats the english translation I have heard). I think the combination of Pings 'hove'=stopped and Mightys 'to'= into the wind makes perfect sense, meaning stopped into the wind. Of course that old saying "for every problem there is a simple obvious solution, that unfortunatly is also wrong" might be the case here given the murky way language evolves.

Sailers language is a far more complex (evolution wise) subset of the english language than most due to the huge amount of mixing of languages and dialects that happened on ships.
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Old 19-09-2016, 03:53   #165
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Re: Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

The discussion is pretty cool. This is why the title of this thread is heave / hove to. The action is discussed as both with a mixed bag of tenses depending upon source. It would seem "hove" is correct and "heave" is what happens when you are sea sick
Thank goodness we have sailors to set us straight on grammer.
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