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Old 02-11-2006, 16:24   #76
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Could be true in the UK about the 747, but not here. I know a couple professional pilots and they move up on "tonnage" just like professional captains do. Most start out on small single engines, then twin engines, then move up to turbo props, then on to light jets, and finaly to the heavy air jets. They also start out ferrying cargo in most cases as they work their way up to flying commercial airliners. They tend to train on the FedEx turbo props and such.

Just like getting additional tonnage on your master's license.
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Old 02-11-2006, 17:18   #77
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Seems to me this one will go on forever. Those who jumped in at the deep end and purchased/built the biggie and managed to get around without smacking into things reckon it's a great idea, and good on ya.

But I still feel it's advisable to work your way up.

Might not be so many kids getting killed on the roads if there was a restriction on h/p for learner drivers. Some of these newer cars , especialy some of the "rice burners" put out a huge amount of grunt, but can the newbies handle it? What happened to first cars that used more oil than petrol and had a stroke at 90Kmh. The new ones have so much electronics and stuff to try and stop idiots from killing themselves behind the wheel, that some are losing touch with how to drive/sail etc.

I'm a firm believer in Darwinism http://www.darwinawards.com/

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Old 04-11-2006, 03:30   #78
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Originally Posted by cat man do
Seems to me this one will go on forever. Those who jumped in at the deep end and purchased/built the biggie and managed to get around without smacking into things reckon it's a great idea, and good on ya.

But I still feel it's advisable to work your way up.
This is about my take on it.

FWIW I think their is a lot of inverted snobbery / jealousy going on when it comes to some folk seeing Newbies with "Big toys" as first boats, rather than starting off with smaller / older boats.

As said already, a bigger boat is easier to handle for a Newbie now than "in the old days", what with all the toys available.

Out of choice I would have started with something in the 35 / 40 foot range - but growing up with Manky Auld Boats meant that is how I started..........plus I couldn't afford to start my own boat ownership in the brand new 35 / 40 foot range (in any case I am still at 30 foot! on something somewhat less than new! - but she may "grow" in time by adding a bowsprit! - but probably not to 40'!!)

But IMO, each to their own - for many people a boat is a floating Caravan, and little more.
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Old 04-11-2006, 04:09   #79
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I got into sailing in the most peculiar way when I was quite old to be a beginner. My old college roomate who I was barely in touch with contacted me to help in his spring prep on a 34' sloop.. I had a wood shop and lots of tools and a car to transport him to the boat yard.

After we did the hard work, he offered me a sail to his summer mooring as a reward. It was great fun and I was smitten by the whole thing of sailing and realized I was a complete idiot, novice, didn't know the jargon and was like a fish outta water. But the whole thing seemed way cool. I was in my mid 30s.

Nothing happened till next Spring when same friend asked me if I wanted to be a partner with him on a 48' new ketch from Holland which was rather inexpensive at the time because of the strong dollar.

Again I drove him to view the boat on the hard in the boat yard. WOW what a difference 14' made. This baby was awesome. I agreed to take the plunge and embarked on a get self educated about sailing, cruising etc. Bought lots of books, and then attended Offshore School of Sailing. I was committed to get into sailing on THAT boat.

His GF at the time nixed the deal saying it was impossible to share a boat. Excuse? Dunno. I was now commited and no boat to call my own (or part my own). I went a lookin for brokerage boats... in the low to mid 30s size. Since I had no fix up experience it was hard to know what I was seeing and what I might be getting into.

I called the orginal broker and asked if he had something smaller than the 48. Indeed he did and it was to be Shiva. Of course he knew that I knew essentially nothing about sailboats.. having done only the one 100' sail and taken a 3 day course... but he sold me the yacht... new in 85... a 36 footer. I got her surveyed and she of course passed but I was told she was not yet tricked out for off shore or extended crusining. Duhhh!

Then all I had to do was figure out sailing. Twenty one years on I still have Shiva and she has had almost everything upgraded and improved, changed... added and has been sailed 10s of thousands of miles almost all singlehanded. My buddy helped out the first season a bit, but he had his own and I was on my own.

Being single most of that time allowed me to indulge my love for sailing. I could do with a slightly large boat, just for more interior space for "living"... perhaps up to 45'.. but not all larger boats have such improved accommodation plans to merit the additional expenses. Aside from that Shiva is paid for and doing all that work again the second time around may not be as much fun.

Bigger boats demand more of everything. More cash to maintain... more muscle to work... more skill at maneuvering. As I get older I prefer something which costs less not more... unless we win lotto and then I get to have a one off done to my specs. But the Contest 36 is a fine and commodious boat for a crusing couple. I know. I have done it!

Jef
sv Shiva
Contest 36s
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:11   #80
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One last thought.

As a private pilot and aircraft owner, I feel most pilots could fly a 747. I believe I could even get one in the air without the passengers getting worried. I only have 400 hours in a single. Landing would be the issue but if I could land where the space shuttle lands, I might make it. The dangers (not including weather and instrument related conditions) are landing and taking off.

The discussion has mostly been about manuvering in tight areas like marinas. I totally agree. If you don't have experience and you have a 45+ yacht, you're going to hit something. Hell, I'm sure the chances for a newbie to hit something in a 26 foot are high also.

I guess I would agree in general. That said, I think most people who can afford to purchase a 50+ yacht are smart enough to get training and help before they take over. I'm sure some are not. There are 1K hour pilots I would not fly with. If they are that type of person, it won't matter what size of boat they purchase.

My new (08) 62 foot, and yes, first sailing yacht would be a handful (even with all the stuff working including thrusters) for a newbie. I've owned a 30 foot power boat and learned quickly how to manuver it without hitting anyone. A sailing vessel will be much different.

Having said this, that is why I am hiring an instructor/ captain for the first 6 months to year at least. Why? Because I can and would rather learn in comfort. I can afford it and if I choose to hire a Captain and crew to do ALL the sailing for me, I will because I can. This will keep me from making a FINANCIAL mistake. I believe any "higher end" 50+ foot sailing yacht will be truly bluewater capable if you stay with the well known manufacturers. So, it then comes down to how bigof a yacht I need to feel comfortable living in for 2 to 3 years. I looked at 40+ and we ended up feeling JUST RIGHT in a 55+ range.

We're doing this becuase we can. I know others can't for various reasons. If I couldn't afford the size and quality, I would go another route because of my love of the sea, sailing, traveling, and on and on..

I've never let lack of experience or $ get in the way of my dreams. I just learn and earn for a later day!
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Old 10-11-2006, 08:13   #81
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Originally Posted by michael201
One last thought.

As a private pilot and aircraft owner, I feel most pilots could fly a 747. I believe I could even get one in the air without the passengers getting worried. I only have 400 hours in a single. Landing would be the issue but if I could land where the space shuttle lands, I might make it. The dangers (not including weather and instrument related conditions) are landing and taking off.

The discussion has mostly been about manuvering in tight areas like marinas. I totally agree. If you don't have experience and you have a 45+ yacht, you're going to hit something. Hell, I'm sure the chances for a newbie to hit something in a 26 foot are high also.

I guess I would agree in general. That said, I think most people who can afford to purchase a 50+ yacht are smart enough to get training and help before they take over. I'm sure some are not. There are 1K hour pilots I would not fly with. If they are that type of person, it won't matter what size of boat they purchase.

My new (08) 62 foot, and yes, first sailing yacht would be a handful (even with all the stuff working including thrusters) for a newbie. I've owned a 30 foot power boat and learned quickly how to manuver it without hitting anyone. A sailing vessel will be much different.

Having said this, that is why I am hiring an instructor/ captain for the first 6 months to year at least. Why? Because I can and would rather learn in comfort. I can afford it and if I choose to hire a Captain and crew to do ALL the sailing for me, I will because I can. This will keep me from making a FINANCIAL mistake. I believe any "higher end" 50+ foot sailing yacht will be truly bluewater capable if you stay with the well known manufacturers. So, it then comes down to how bigof a yacht I need to feel comfortable living in for 2 to 3 years. I looked at 40+ and we ended up feeling JUST RIGHT in a 55+ range.

We're doing this becuase we can. I know others can't for various reasons. If I couldn't afford the size and quality, I would go another route because of my love of the sea, sailing, traveling, and on and on..

I've never let lack of experience or $ get in the way of my dreams. I just learn and earn for a later day!
Micael201, I wish you nothing but good luck and fair winds. Maybe we'll see you out cruising.

B
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Old 17-01-2007, 13:18   #82
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Thumbs up What size to start?

Been reading this thread and just had to weigh in... My first boat is a Cross 46 MKIIB trimaran, almost 50'LOA and over 45 feet on the water with a beam of 25' and GRT of 17tons. She is sloop rigged with a 5 batten full roach main that is almost 800sq'. Empty and trim she'll do 8kts in 10kts off the beam and fully laden for cruising she'll still do 2/3 to 3/4 of the wind speed depending on your point of sail. She is a large powerful cruising, not racing tri with a main salon of approx 12x14 and a full galley that leaves most people in awe. I love my boat. I grew up on the water in Santa Barbara during the early 50's and was lucky enough to have experienced sailing on everything from 8'seashells to Sterling Hayden's Wanderer and his squarerigger, GracieS, used in some of his swashbucklers. To say I have no sailing experience would be incorrect. To say I was an experienced sailor prior to the purchase and travels on S/V Moxie would also be incorrect. That being said, I am an experienced, competent, respected and respectful, considerate, cautious, Open Ocean Voyager with almost 25,000nm sailing the Deep Blue. I have sailed in the best and worst of conditions and have sailed deep into the Southern Ocean where few venture, been trapped on the Lee shore of Palmerston Island 2 boat lengths off the reef and no motor and then sailing, yes sailing, into Queen Shalote Harbor, after negotiating the long and ardous passage into Tongatapu. I have sailed in the best of weather and been blessed to have witnessed the antics of sea creatures, large and small, feathered and finned, all on my "first" boat.

I think the point has been made a few times that it is more the character of the person, not the size of his boat that matters. I have met and sailed with all types of Sailors from all walks of life on all types and sizes of vessels and in my heart I find it doesn't matter whether on Land or Sea, an Ass is an Ass wherever they be.

Learning is something that can be gained from reading, talking, observing and other sources of input whereas experience is gained from doing. One squall in real life is worth a thousand learned by study. Don't get me wrong, learning is an important tool of life and can greatly enhance the experience you are seeking and can give you knowledge in how to respond but it is not the same as being there.

I have Macular Degeneration and am losing my site. If I wanted to "see" some of the things I have only dreamed about, then I had to react. I didn't have the time to go from boat to boat. My criteria for a boat was based on many things, but, it all boiled down to something that was 1)safe 2) comfortable 3) affordable 4) proven
The vessel I chose had already circumnavigated the globe and had just had extensive rework so I knew she was in good shape, only one person's view of"ready to cruise anywhere" and reality can be miles apart. I replaced most every system on Moxie, added many safety features and then, after 6 months of hard work, we took out across accross the vast stretches of the Pacific. Moxie was home and haven, school house and fun house for the next 3100nm before we reached our first landfall in the Marquesas, Nuka Hiva. We learned as we went. On board we had people from all walks and all skill sets, including one who had 5 voyages to the South Pacfic and beyond and one with virtually no experience. All in all we were an inexperienced, experienced crew. I say this because every boat is different in many ways yet the truths of sailing are appropriate no matter what the size of your boat.

I would not trade my experience for anything and I will stand by my choice of boats against all critics. Moxie was able to provide for all of our needs from being self sustaining to being a "floating workshop/supermarket" to being an "island of solitude" in a world of sensory overload.

If anyone is interested, I would be more than happy to explain why we did what we did and what worked and what didn't but for my 2cents worth, it's the people, not the vessel, that give you grief and how prepared they are for their task at hand. Take a look at The Voyages of S/V Moxie and her dink, the Dawn Treader. I need to update it but for now it shows what a "newbie" can do.

Fair Winds and Following Seas,
Dale
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Old 17-01-2007, 15:58   #83
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Very thoughtful post, Dave. See, you are the shining example of someone who *can* start out with a larger boat. Unfortunately, there are less and less of you out there all the time.

By all means, you did the right thing in my book, especially considering the physical limitation you are/were up against.
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Old 17-01-2007, 18:13   #84
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Great thread.

We started with a 16" MacGregor - seemed like a large boat at the time. Then a 23' Precision - seemed like a really large at the time. Now a 40' Tartan - still seems still seems like a large boat!

The two big differences between the three were... 1) We tended to have a lot more fun on the smaller boats, and... 2) We had a a hell of a time getting a satisfactory insurance policy when going from the 23' to the 40'. Even with around 23 years of sailing experience, including charters of boats up to the 40' range, it seems that going from 23 to 40' was a big problem for the insurance people. So, my question is, how do the folks going from 0-50' and no real experience on anything manage the insurance? Or is that just a matter of another handful (bucket?) of cash?
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Old 17-01-2007, 18:33   #85
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Before too many assumptions are made about us having "Daddy Warbucks" pockets, we are hard working average folks who put together a budget to a)purchase vessel b) bring up to cruising form c) provision for extended cruising(and I mean provision) d) kitty for cruising. We stayed on budge for the purchase, ran over budget on refit, stayed on budget for provisioning and ran over budget on cruising(some of this was due to fly home twice from the South Pacific for Kidney surgeries(damn kidney stones any way!) but all in all we did pretty well. The insurance wasn't as bad as you might think(see letters to the editor in Latitude 38 Nov'04) We were cancalled for our Offshore travels so it was always in our mind that if we lose the boat we lose everything but heck sometimes you just have to do it.
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Old 17-01-2007, 18:42   #86
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Just meant everything seems to be a fist full cash on the boat... some fists are bigger than others though. Personally, I'm just hoping the the refit will come in uner the perchase price of the boat!

Were you able to get third party, or liability? Or did you manage without any at all?
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Old 17-01-2007, 19:20   #87
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Medivac for kidney stones??? OUCH!! (and not the cost, I mean having to fly back from the South Pacific)
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Old 17-01-2007, 20:33   #88
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probably cheaper to have paid for surgery in NZ, Aus , Fiji.........
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Old 18-01-2007, 14:51   #89
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If I been in a smaller boat

this trip probably wouldn't have taken place... To expand on the 1st boat theme, in preparation for this journey, on Sept 1 '04, I had a triple lamenectomy and two days later had my right shoulder replaced, for the third time(old Viet Nam souvenir form 1966-1969 3 tours USMC). Spent the next 12 weeks rehabbing before the Admiral let me get back to work and then the damn kidney stone. I sailed most of the Pacific with stint in to keep the path open so I think if I had been on anything with less than the smooth ride Moxie gave us, I might not have been able to handle it. Along with the ride came speed. The reference made earlier about anything above ten kts was way too uncomfortable applies mainly to sailing with the wind forward of the beam. Any time the wind is less than 75 degrees and over 15 kts, we keep Moxie under7-8kts but give me wind aft of the beam and I'll let her run with the wind and never worry about spilling a drop from my 1700hrs cocktail. I won't go into the usual pro's and con's of mono vs multi but in the choice of boats this was a major consideration. Of course on the return from New Zealand with the lows 500 miles north of their usual line, we never found the Westerlies and got clobbered by the SE quadrant of three major lows that made the run across the Southern Ocean a long hard passage that I would not like to repeat in either a mono or multi hull. It should have taken us two days to make the 350nm from the Australs to Tahiti but with the wind, after the first 12 hours from the east@15 KTS AND 98NM RUN, the wind swung around out of the NNWat 20-30 kts we ended up taking 5 days to get there.

Anyway, I think the spirit of the thread was missed in that it's not really the size of the boat that matters as much as it is the person at the helm. I would like to think that I wasn't thought of as someone who went out with the bigger is better mentality and hell and be damned with anybody in my way, let the Insurance Company smooth it over. There is an entire community/lifestyle out here in the Cruising World where their boats, large and small, are their life and lifeblood and respect of property should be paid no matter what the situation.

Fair Winds,
Dale
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