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Old 24-12-2015, 16:14   #106
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post

...I almost always have the traveler above centerline when closehauled. Then enough sheet to loosen up the leech to get all tell-tales flowing. 15-20ish I'm rolling in some twist by further easing the mainsheet and moving the traveler more windward.

For my boat I reduce main area first. If not, weather helm is insane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
We do much the same, although we keep our mainsail FLAT until be bear off and then loosen the mainsheet. We also use the vang with the mainsheet fully in for further flattening. We have and use a cunningham. Our outhaul is stiff, so essentially it's fixed but we'd yank it tight if we could...
If I am going for max upwind vmg, the above is what I do.

Important points:
Main:
- As wind increases, make the main flatter and flatter.
- Tighten main outhaul and halyards, Cunningham and backstays.
- Place traveller somewhat to windward of center and sheet it in so that the boom is pulled down and the main is flattened.
- Boom at centerline.
- Tension the vang to flatten main as wind builds.
- Ensure you are pointed correctly to the wind and moving close to target boat speed.
- Adjust vang and heading so all telltales flying.
Jib:
- Use sheet and position jib cars so jib is trimmed with all telltales flying

When in doubt, ease off a little on the sheets

As wind builds the boat will point more even as you reach hull speed.

The trim will be more sensitive to wind shifts so the boat needs to be actively steered.

Eventually, you cannot flatten more and you must dump wind by:
- Fisherman's reef which is just letting out the sheets
- Easing vang and moving jib cars aft so as to twist off and spill wind from the top of the sails.
- Reef

Note: Use the vang as much as possible to shape main because the traveller gets loaded and hard to move, and also because it is more precise.
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Old 24-12-2015, 19:37   #107
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Smokester View Post
. . .
Note: Use the vang as much as possible to shape main because the traveller gets loaded and hard to move, and also because it is more precise.. . .
That's a hot tip, something I discovered very recently and wish someone had told me before.

Mainsheet adds leech tension but also affects boom angle, in wildly different proportions from 0/100 to 100/0 depending on the boom angle.

Vang ONLY affects leech tension, so it's a "pure" control in this sense, giving you more precise control.

I found it easier to trim the mainsail when close-hauled with vang and traveller, keeping the base rate of tension on the leech with the mainsheet but not touching it much after that.

I never thought of it because way back when, I was taught not to use the vang at all until the boom is beyond the end of the traveller


BTW a good traveller is key to sailing pleasure, no less important than good jib cars. My present boat is the first boat I ever had with this set up properly, and it is such a joy. Oversized ball bearing Selden traveller car with double purchase remote control, and dedicated winches. It works fine under any amount of tension, but using the vang close-hauled is still worthwhile for all the reasons above.
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Old 24-12-2015, 23:36   #108
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.



perhaps a little bit of a hijack - I hope you will excuse me.

I currently have end boom sheeting and a long (wide) traveler, which gives excellent mainsail control. But we are preparing the boat for a circumnavigation and as such I'm going to change this arrangement and get the traveler out of the cockpit.

There are two options

1 - move the traveler up to the coach roof. this is the way the traveler is situated on a Sun Odyssey and since our boat is basicallly the same, we can do this. But the traveler then becomes very short and in reality will be of very little use unless we are sailing hard up on the wind

2- go the route the new Hansa and Swans have gone ( I believe Bavaria also does this) Put and upright block on the coach roof at the spot where the traveler would have ended and then rig the mainsheet through these. The disadvantage with this is it is not possible to get the boom over the center line unless some sort of barberhaul or the like is rigged (which could be if one were going to sail upwind all day)

So does anyone have any real experience with option 2? Advantages and disadvantages?

thanks ahead of time for the help
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Old 25-12-2015, 02:39   #109
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post


perhaps a little bit of a hijack - I hope you will excuse me.

I currently have end boom sheeting and a long (wide) traveler, which gives excellent mainsail control. But we are preparing the boat for a circumnavigation and as such I'm going to change this arrangement and get the traveler out of the cockpit.

There are two options

1 - move the traveler up to the coach roof. this is the way the traveler is situated on a Sun Odyssey and since our boat is basicallly the same, we can do this. But the traveler then becomes very short and in reality will be of very little use unless we are sailing hard up on the wind

2- go the route the new Hansa and Swans have gone ( I believe Bavaria also does this) Put and upright block on the coach roof at the spot where the traveler would have ended and then rig the mainsheet through these. The disadvantage with this is it is not possible to get the boom over the center line unless some sort of barberhaul or the like is rigged (which could be if one were going to sail upwind all day)

So does anyone have any real experience with option 2? Advantages and disadvantages?

thanks ahead of time for the help
My Dad's boat had your Option 2 and it was awful. I do not recommend this at all. It basically destroys your mainsail control upwind.

Your Option 1 is not as bad as it sounds, because the closer it is to the mast, the shorter the traveller can be with the same range of boom angle control. The disadvantage is that the forces are higher as it creates leverage. The other drawback, and a more serious one, is that mid-boom sheeting increases the forces on the boom and makes it much easier to break the boom in an accidental gybe. You can't do it at all if the boom was not designed for the loads of mid-boom sheeting, or you'll have to change the boom.

Option 3, the one I would definitely take, is to leave it as it is. Sailing long distances -- you're going to go all the way around the world, under sail -- you want the best sail controls you can have. Don't make them worse, just to have more room in the cockpit. My opinion FWIW.
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Old 25-12-2015, 21:49   #110
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Release the vang and dump power out the top of the sail, before you worry about a reef. If a rail is in the water, you need the reef, but still twist power out the top. Run your jib leads aft for helm balance. Round up equals too much main.
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Old 26-12-2015, 01:57   #111
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

I do hear what you are saying about the room - but it is also so we can rig a bimini - which we simply can't do with the traveler right across the cockpit. I have mounted a stronger boom (jeanneau recommendation)

I suppose the easiest is to just go with a short traveller

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
My Dad's boat had your Option 2 and it was awful. I do not recommend this at all. It basically destroys your mainsail control upwind.

Your Option 1 is not as bad as it sounds, because the closer it is to the mast, the shorter the traveller can be with the same range of boom angle control. The disadvantage is that the forces are higher as it creates leverage. The other drawback, and a more serious one, is that mid-boom sheeting increases the forces on the boom and makes it much easier to break the boom in an accidental gybe. You can't do it at all if the boom was not designed for the loads of mid-boom sheeting, or you'll have to change the boom.

Option 3, the one I would definitely take, is to leave it as it is. Sailing long distances -- you're going to go all the way around the world, under sail -- you want the best sail controls you can have. Don't make them worse, just to have more room in the cockpit. My opinion FWIW.
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Old 26-12-2015, 02:25   #112
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I do hear what you are saying about the room - but it is also so we can rig a bimini - which we simply can't do with the traveler right across the cockpit. I have mounted a stronger boom (jeanneau recommendation)

I suppose the easiest is to just go with a short traveller
You should check to make sure the boom is the same as the SO. If not, you will need to swap it out, in order to go to mid-boom sheeting. Otherwise you could bend the boom like a pretzel.

Another thing to consider is a boom tent, instead of a bimini. Can't use it underway, but should be good at anchor and moored. If your spray hood is deep enough (like mine is), you can hide from the sun under there, while under way.

I know keeping out of the sun is paramount in the tropics, so maybe a bimini is really essential. I don't know. But biminis sure cut down on the enjoyment of being outdoors. My dad's boat had a permanently mounted bimini which could not be easily put away, which really hurt enjoyment in the evenings. You never see the sky. And it is also much harder to see the sails (even with the window in it). Being on a sailboat with a bimini seems to me a bit like taking a shower with a raincoat on or . . . well, I wont' go there . . . .

My boat has a full cockpit enclosure which can be used as a bimini with the side and aft panels taken out, but I never use it like that. I prefer to hide from the sun under the spray hood. Of course I'm not sailing in the tropics, so YMMV. But something to think about, anyway.

As another variant -- can't you mount a short bimini, which leaves your mainsheet clear? Here's a Sunfast 40.3, with a shorty bimini, which actually looks pretty good:

Click image for larger version

Name:	5361004_20150824081708985_1_LARGE.jpg
Views:	87
Size:	42.3 KB
ID:	115645

2005 Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3, Murcia Spain - boats.com

The good thing about this one, is it will keep the tropical sun off the helmsman, but you can look out from under it at the sails, and you can easily pull it down in the evenings. Something to consider.

I love this traveler arrangement; it's better than what I have. Being right there at hand in front of you, with that lovely long travel.
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Old 26-12-2015, 03:55   #113
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by CAELESTIS View Post
Round up equals too much main.
Or blown out sails pushing the CE too far aft.

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Old 26-12-2015, 04:33   #114
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

And if you don't have a traveler or a Vang you have to get by with experience......

Plus downhaul, boom position for those of us with floating booms, mast prebend, mast rake, mainsheet tension, jib size, and how close to the wind is really necessary to sail. (if you are not racing!) A thicker main is easier to flatter also I'm thinking. Mine is 8 oz on a 27' boat.

Having racing experience helps because you know for sure what works and what doesn't (since most every race is dependent on the first leg which is upwind) whereas a skipper that hasn't raced is going by what he believes works since there isn't another boat nearby of like design to compare his changes to.
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Old 26-12-2015, 08:01   #115
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

That looks pretty nify, but there are still a umber of issues related. I've already changed the boom out to the one recommended by jeanneau for doing this. I'm going to have bimini made that can be folded back (evenings etc) we shall see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You should check to make sure the boom is the same as the SO. If not, you will need to swap it out, in order to go to mid-boom sheeting. Otherwise you could bend the boom like a pretzel.

Another thing to consider is a boom tent, instead of a bimini. Can't use it underway, but should be good at anchor and moored. If your spray hood is deep enough (like mine is), you can hide from the sun under there, while under way.

I know keeping out of the sun is paramount in the tropics, so maybe a bimini is really essential. I don't know. But biminis sure cut down on the enjoyment of being outdoors. My dad's boat had a permanently mounted bimini which could not be easily put away, which really hurt enjoyment in the evenings. You never see the sky. And it is also much harder to see the sails (even with the window in it). Being on a sailboat with a bimini seems to me a bit like taking a shower with a raincoat on or . . . well, I wont' go there . . . .

My boat has a full cockpit enclosure which can be used as a bimini with the side and aft panels taken out, but I never use it like that. I prefer to hide from the sun under the spray hood. Of course I'm not sailing in the tropics, so YMMV. But something to think about, anyway.

As another variant -- can't you mount a short bimini, which leaves your mainsheet clear? Here's a Sunfast 40.3, with a shorty bimini, which actually looks pretty good:

Attachment 115645

2005 Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3, Murcia Spain - boats.com

The good thing about this one, is it will keep the tropical sun off the helmsman, but you can look out from under it at the sails, and you can easily pull it down in the evenings. Something to consider.

I love this traveler arrangement; it's better than what I have. Being right there at hand in front of you, with that lovely long travel.
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