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Old 17-12-2015, 09:03   #16
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Don't understand everything tight and then moving the traveler hard to windward. That generally overpowers the main and produces more heel. The only time I would consider moving the traveler to windward in heavier air is when you also ease the main and twist off the top of the sail.

Also, as others have suggested, with your "downhaul" on hard, tighten the backstay to move the draft back a little and narrow the angle of entry on the luff of the main.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:12   #17
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
It's synonymous with Cunningham.

Used to tighten the luff of the mainsail

On racing beachcats, we had 8 to 1 downhaul. We tightened the luff as much as possible on windy days along with more mast prebend to flatten the main as much as possible. Some folks also raked their masts further back, and some didn't

Some folks feathered their jibs if it got really windy
That's what I thought. When racing we usually adjust the cunningham or foreguy. If someone used the term downhaul, no one would know what they were talking about. But it occurred to me that in some circles foreguys and cunninghams are referred to as types of downhauls - either that or it's an entirely different piece of equipment I am unfamiliar with, which is always a possibility..
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:20   #18
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by OldFrog75 View Post
Don't understand everything tight and then moving the traveler hard to windward. That generally overpowers the main and produces more heel.
You can always add more rail meat!

https://www.google.com/search?q=trap...ckEwyN0KvaM%3A

Maybe his "first mate" would sit out as far as possible on the windward side. (or he could rig a trapeze line and she can trap out over the water!)

https://www.google.com/search?q=trap...nM050oe17IM%3A

https://www.google.com/search?q=trap...adNqHH9Mb5M%3A
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:23   #19
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

"Rarely is there too much wind, just too much sail" ...

Shorten sail and just accept the increased performance and comfort ;-)
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:28   #20
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

I like Thomm225's posts and suggest you have a good read of them.
I too was going to suggest keeping the main full and furling the jib more.
Backstay tension is important too if its adjustable. Most racing boats take ages to learn you really need to crank it on in 20kts.

But first things first... you may be sailing perfectly as is so mark the positions of everything before you start experimenting.
Get a GPS COG to see if you are really laying the marina. If so you only problem is your wife thinks the heel is excessive... but we don't know your boat type. If its 1980's or before it might love the heeling... and many old race boats needed to have gunwales awash.

What was my other point...? ? Ahh, yes, sure you have some helm but if the boat only rounds up occasionally then you are fine because you could always dump the traveler (or sheet) if you need to.

Your boat may be going perfectly... you may just have to prove to your wife its safe and EXHILARATING!

Sent from a stupid phone that replaces words with weird stuff.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:40   #21
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by sharpey View Post
I know it is only 20knots... but have you tried putting a reef in and seeing if you get the same speed, but less heel, and thus less weather-helm?
This. You sound overpowered. Depending on the design (as in "is it a long J IOR design?"), you may also wish to rig a barber-hauler for more pointing.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:40   #22
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by MollyJo View Post
Hi All
Returning to my mooring, the last 3 nm's is always hard to wind in 20 kts. My boat is 30ft, 3.5 tone sloop. She travels well to wind but I wonder if I could be doing better. The set up....., pointing as high as possible, some minor back winding in the top third of the main, traveller hard to windward, main sheet hard on, vang firm, out haul hard, down haul hard, very healed over, ie gunnel awash, and more weather helm than desirable but making 6 knots in the right direction. Occasional uncontrolled rounding up in big gusts. If I ease the main and hold the course it begins to flog. If I dump the traveller, same thing.
Should I drop a few degrees off the wind and add a tack later or stay close hauled? Is there a better way to set the sail when sailing as close as you can go to windward? I have to say I'm pretty happy with 6 knts but the rig is pretty loaded up and the first mate is a little uncomfortable with the heal but getting better all the time. Thanks for your thoughts


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this is troublesome to me;

"traveller hard to windward, main sheet hard on,"

it suggests to me that the boom is to windward of the centerline of the boat which is like putting on the air brakes while your rudder is acting as a water brake with it's excess weather helm. but you're half way to a solution to the buried rail and releasing the brakes. leave the traveler to windward and simply easy the main sheet until the boom is centered with the mast. you're now twisting the main with all of the power in the lower half and spilling out of the upper part of the sail. if you still have trouble then by all means tuck in that first reef.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:41   #23
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

I'm no expert but it does sound to me like you are overpowered. Heeling that far over and rounding up into the wind all the time with a lot of weather helm are all classic signs of too much sail, which we see all the time on charter boats in the Adriatic. Try putting a reef in and see how she handles, if she's less heeled and not rounding up then that's your fix.

I have a 40ft mono and at 20kts we already have the first reef in, the handling is so much more comfortable (even balanced) and she still does 6kts happily. In light airs we move the traveller upwind to tweak the sail shape and gain a few extra 10ths but as the wind increases it's dropped back to midships or even out to leeward to depower the main.

I'd suggest trying less sail and see what happens. Tweaking and adjusting mast angles, shrouds, backstays and all that is great on a full race boat but is it really necessary on a cruising yacht?

Let us know how you get on and what you find works for you

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Old 17-12-2015, 09:46   #24
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Probably is a good idea to take a look at the boat design.

A nine ton 30 foot long keeler, with 24' LWL, and D/L over 500.

First built in 1960. Is this the boat?

VIKING 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Edit to add..... perhaps not the boat, as I notice the OP states 3.5 ton.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:49   #25
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Sailing to windward, what's that?
At last, a true sailor. Going to windward, especially when returning to dock, is why they put engines in sailboats.

Lots of good advice in the other responses. One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is whether you have telltales on the mainsail luff and leech. What are they doing? Independent of wind speed and the amount of sail, what you need is a smooth flow over the sail (telltales flying horizontal). If yours have a lot of fluttering/oscillation there is turbulence and it is slowing you down. Some of the turbulence will come from the jib/genoa, some from backwinding as the boat rounds up, all signs of being overloaded, hence the advice to reduce sail area.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:53   #26
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Also, if you could rake the mast aft a bit that will help ......
And do you have any prebend in your mast?
As I don't have experience with adjustable backstays, can you give us a quick explanation of how adjusting backstays (therefore bending mast) affects sail design and performance? Obviously, this is only an option on fractional masts(?).
thanks.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:55   #27
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

With all that heel you're making a ton of leeway and have all kinds of weather helm. Your VMG cannot be good. I presume you are a full, not a fractional, rig. If fractional, harden the back stay to depower the main. In any case drop the traveler and put in a reef. The headsail will give you the point and will get you there. Or turn the engine on.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:57   #28
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Used to have a Sigma 33 OOD where you could tension the back stay. 20 knots: first reef and more speed and less heel even at 18 knots. Depended on crew; sometimes it was just plain fun to heel and 'uit je roer lopen' (round-up with max weather helm and lots of burbling). With more crew using the traveller (not to windward) in gusts helps a lot.
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Old 17-12-2015, 09:59   #29
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

Not going to offer an opinion on the trim, not an expert! I do, however, have a suggestion, or maybe a question. We use the "VMG to Wind" function on our chartplotter to find the best pointing angle. Our best VMG seems to be at about 31 degrees on our Seaward 25. Is this a good idea or are we fooling ourselves?
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Old 17-12-2015, 10:04   #30
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Re: Going hard to wind, main sail trim.

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Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
I agree with using the first reef as others have recommended. But not furling the genoa as someone suggested.. Partly furled headsails do not perform well to windward.

I would reverse your traveler technique. Have it all the way to leeward. Then use the mainsheet to trim. . You will need the Vang, Cunningham, Foot and Back Stay on hard to flatten the main as much as possible. It seems you have that covered however.

But defs try the different sheeting angle first. If that doesnt work, add the first reef.

oh oh, the other option is a smaller headsail of course. Say going from a number 2 Genny to a number 1 Jib.
couldn't disagree more. first, the golden rule for reducing sail in racing is to shorten fore to aft; headsail to the smallest and only then tuck a reef into the main. sure, roller reefing a head sail does reduce it's efficiency but we're not talking light air here. how efficient does a headsail need to be in a 20 kt blow especially if you can keep a giant main well trimmed and driving. and if rounding up is a problem, a shortened main with a big genoa will only worsen the problem.

reversing his traveler technique will reduce weather helm and heal but with the traveler all the way to leeward the only way to trim the main will be to bear off. bad move when pointing is a priority.
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