Getting Long Distances Upwind

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Frugal

"Nothing quite beats to windward like a six cylinder diesel".
However a bit of forward planning re wind shifts may indicate the best tack to take with a view to maximising your advantage down the track.
Burning a little diesel gives you far better pointing ability hence less log miles and is usually more comfortable.
Sorry if the comments seem trite.
Cheers

You have to have quite a lot of power, a big prop, and a very large tank of diesel fuel, to get many miles upwind under power with 20 knots or more of wind against you. It's not an option for most cruising sailboats. For most of us, it is more efficient and comfortable to sail, even if it requires a lot of tacking.

However, there is nothing which makes it impossible for a very well sailing, weatherly, fast, sailing yacht to also be capable of powerful motoring. I plan for my next boat to be like that. Long waterline (about 60' in maybe 65' LOA), rather fine hull (15' or less of beam), quite light, with very light, empty ends, and a powerful light diesel engine, maybe one of the Yanmar common rail sixes. So 150 - 180 horsepower. Hundested variable pitch prop.

I noted with interest the comments about water ballast above. I might try to add capacity to pump fuel and fresh water around in the boat for "stacking". Although with a narrow beam there will be less effect from this, than would be the case on many other boats.

[Cherod]

Some interesting experiences there , especially with the weather not going to forecast / plan , reminiscent of my recent crossing , really loved the Baltic ( what I saw of the southern part ) with all the possible mooring / tie up options and the lovely no tide !! Yes , shallow draft multi is the way to go ( imho ) I can say my two small 8 hp inboards coped well with seemingly endless hours of motoring into wind and waves, , only one time being overwhelmed and that was mostly comfort related

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cherod

. . .Yes , shallow draft multi is the way to go ( imho )

You would have a lot of trouble getting a multi into almost ANY of the yacht marinas in the Baltic. Multis almost don't exist in the Baltic, and the harbors aren't designed to take them.

Multi would be a good platform for enjoying the archipelagos here, though.

[Cherod]

We were in three or four small harbours with no problems , no marinas tho , we did not get round to dropping the anchor tho that would open up many many more options ,,, good luck with your passage , I can thoroughly recommend the LCF in Cuxhaven if you are passing that way ( you prob know that already ��)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cherod

We were in three or four small harbours with no problems , no marinas tho , we did not get round to dropping the anchor tho that would open up many many more options ,,, good luck with your passage , I can thoroughly recommend the LCF in Cuxhaven if you are passing that way ( you prob know that already ��)

Of I am not mistake, it was I who recommended LCF to you! Nice place, cheap, friendly.

[Cherod]

Well ,, I thank you for that

[svrodeorm]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As to what boat to choose for the Baltic: I am actually very happy with my Moody, even when I'm single handed. It is true that there are many harbors which are too shallow or buoys too close, but that's why God made fishing harbors . . . .

The choice of anchorages is absolutely unlimited with the millions and millions of islands, and when you anchor out, the bigger the boat, the better.

As to why I migrate back and forth -- yes, I can't resist the wonderful winter (and fall and spring!) sailing in the English Channel, when the Baltic is already frozen . Besides that, the Solent is the best place in the world for refitting and maintenance. And on top of that I love Cowes and London and like to spend part of the year there.

I also just love the "long road" back and forth. Even if the way back is uphill!

I hear you, never had the time, or preference to cruise in the Channel or south coast of England, I have a French partner who longed to revisit northern Brittany at the time. I take a not of your comments of lovely winter sailing though, maybe one day..... but Patagonia is higher up my list, and a lot closer to Tahiti

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm on my way back to the UK from Finland for the fourth year in a row.

1500 miles against the prevailing winds

My first experience of this was what led me to having new carbon sails made and improving my rig for upwind performance.

Now I start to think about improving my strategy.

Maybe someone has some tips?

I realize many cruisers just wait until they get a wind they like. But it's not an option for me -- I work for a living and am lucky enough as it is to get to sail for a solid month up here, and then a couple of months later, for a solid month back.

Others just put on the iron topsail. I don't mind motoring when it makes sense, but there's usually too much wind for it to make sense motoring against the wind, up here. Sailing is generally much faster.




I generally follow the principles I learned racing decades ago.

1. Always sail the favored tack.

and

2. If the wind is shifting, sail so that you tack in the opposite direction, from how the wind is shifting.


On my route, unlike something like the Baja Bash, I do often have a choice of different destinations along the way, which can be chosen according to the wind. So I might go S when the wind is more W, or W when the wind is more S. But it's still complicated -- if you end up going S and so end up E of where you're trying to get, then you are trapped waiting for something with W in it with no other options.

So inevitably, as much as I would like to avoid it, I always end up tacking at some point. My design goal when I worked on my sails and rig was to be able to make 5 knots VMG to windward in good conditions, but I didn't quite make it. And I REALLY can't make that in the Baltic, where the water surface always moves with the wind, so your tacking angle is always widened by the current So those legs where I have no choice but try to get right to windward, are pretty slow and miserable.

Any tips?

Sail the favored board and sail your VMC up the ladder till the board isn't favored. Or there's a compelling reason to roll it over.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You have to have quite a lot of power, a big prop, and a very large tank of diesel fuel, to get many miles upwind under power with 20 knots or more of wind against you. It's not an option for most cruising sailboats. For most of us, it is more efficient and comfortable to sail, even if it requires a lot of tacking.

However, there is nothing which makes it impossible for a very well sailing, weatherly, fast, sailing yacht to also be capable of powerful motoring. I plan for my next boat to be like that. Long waterline (about 60' in maybe 65' LOA), rather fine hull (15' or less of beam), quite light, with very light, empty ends, and a powerful light diesel engine, maybe one of the Yanmar common rail sixes. So 150 - 180 horsepower. Hundested variable pitch prop.

I noted with interest the comments about water ballast above. I might try to add capacity to pump fuel and fresh water around in the boat for "stacking". Although with a narrow beam there will be less effect from this, than would be the case on many other boats.

Sail upwind on a Santa Cruz 70 for a couple days in big wind and seas. You may change your mind about light skinny boats upwind? Downwind, whole nother story.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Joli

Sail upwind on a Santa Cruz 70 for a couple days in big wind and seas. You may change your mind about light skinny boats upwind? Downwind, whole nother story.

True, ok in flatter water but a long light boat can pound viciously once the sea gets big enough. The best boat I ever sailed uowind was an old BT challenge 67. Heavy, steel and very very powerful to windward. Not much stopped it, certainly not normal seas, and a very comfortable ride, though a lot of green water over the foredeck.

[SailingFan]

I see I am FAR late to the party here, and I thought I was going to get to offer a quiet "there it is!" idea, but I see that Uncivilized and at least one other member beat me to it..

The clearing of the decks and all the aloft and underhull resistance was going to be my offering. Then I was going to mention clearing out any unnecessary...luggage... within the hull, and anything that would cause windage above.

I am a noob and may not even be too very welcome in this discussion, not having run even a power boat in that area, but I sure love to hear about the places you are visiting along the way, because I am hoping in a couple years I will be able to make a run that direction for a vacation. I won't be able to be a live-aboard at that point, most likely, but a vacation run would sure be nice! I am not sure the Admiral will want to make the trip, so I may even be alone when I do it.

We shall see...

[arsenelupiga]

I know you guys wont like what I am about to say but will say it anyway:

Buy a lagoon 400 , learn how to sail upwind and enjoy 10 kn upwind and 7.5kn VMG in comfort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlQcTerEs_U

You will make long distances upwind in no time.

Enjoy !

[Panope]

Writings about the old Bristol Pilot Cutters describe tremendous ability to make way to windward in almost any weather.

Are these historians just waxing on about the beloved olden times?

Or did these very heavy boats have some kind of windward Mojo that modern boats lack?

Steve

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You have to have quite a lot of power, a big prop, and a very large tank of diesel fuel, to get many miles upwind under power with 20 knots or more of wind against you. It's not an option for most cruising sailboats. For most of us, it is more efficient and comfortable to sail, even if it requires a lot of tacking.

However, there is nothing which makes it impossible for a very well sailing, weatherly, fast, sailing yacht to also be capable of powerful motoring. I plan for my next boat to be like that. Long waterline (about 60' in maybe 65' LOA), rather fine hull (15' or less of beam), quite light, with very light, empty ends, and a powerful light diesel engine, maybe one of the Yanmar common rail sixes. So 150 - 180 horsepower. Hundested variable pitch prop.

I noted with interest the comments about water ballast above. I might try to add capacity to pump fuel and fresh water around in the boat for "stacking". Although with a narrow beam there will be less effect from this, than would be the case on many other boats.

Dockhead,

We have the same Yanmar 100hp turbo diesel as you, no problems going directly upwind in 20-30 knot winds. 2200-2400 rpm will usually do the job to make anywhere from 4-5 knots depending on the waves and wind speed. It's actually quite comfortable on a center cockpit boat. Fortunately, we're able to sail most days here in the Adriatic, but we don't hesitate to motor upwind when it's necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f4Wf0qDdbs

[StuM]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I know you guys wont like what I am about to say but will say it anyway:

Buy a lagoon 400 , learn how to sail upwind and enjoy 10 kn upwind and 7.5kn VMG in comfort.

You will make long distances upwind in no time.

Enjoy !

It's wild claims like this that give us catamaran cruisers a bad name.

Do the maths. Even assuming no leeway:

7.5 VMG with a SOG of 10 knots means you are tracking at 41° TWA .

That would mean:

At 15 knots TWS: 23.4 AWS @ 25° AWA,
AT 20 knots TWS: 28.7 AWS @ 27° AWA.

Are you claiming that a Lagoon 400 can sail at 10 kts at less than 30° AWA?