Getting Long Distances Upwind

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seabeau

Dockhead. Earlier Retirement.

Ha, ha. Well, that's the classic solution.

I'm afraid I'm doomed to never retiring, at least not before I'm so feeble that I won't want to sail, either. So I presume that the time constraints are a more or less permanent feature

[Paul L]

I like the power tack approach. Sail on the favored tack and motor-sail on the other tack. This gets the unfavored tack over with as quick as possible and gives more time actually sailing.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's not an "issue". It's a challenge

Don't you face the same "challenge" every year.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Don't you face the same "challenge" every year.

Absolutely!

[El Pinguino]

Its more than a few years since I was at sea in that part of the world and the furthest east I ever got was Gothenburg... however... my memories of summers north of the Wash involves lack of wind rather than too much... and fog.

That said I don't think this is a strategic issue... that would involve either Kiel Canal or Kattegat type decisions.

You have a tactical issue.. you have good wx prog out to say 4 days... work with it .

If the likes of Ben and myself and many others can get 1400 miles to windward in about 50 days when we rarely have more than a 5 mile wide channel to work in and can still tie up every night and have a sit down dinner and nice bottle of Carmenere to wash it down with and a cooked breakfast in the AM before we get underweigh again I fail to understand why you can't do 1400 miles in 30 days.. you are talking less than 50 miles day.

And yes the seas can be short and steep where we sail...

Simple tactics... favoured tack... nada mas.

And also ... the wind needs to be blowing constantly in a constant direction with some strength for some time before any noticeable water ( as in current/tidal stream) movement will occur

Bummer about the retirement issue .. I'm in my 12th year

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And I REALLY can't make that in the Baltic, where the water surface always moves with the wind, so your tacking angle is always widened by the current

There is also 1/4 knot of current moving from the north down past the E coast and Poland, across the top of Germany and out past Denmark. Presumably due to fresh water melt moving down from the north. It isn't really evident on the surface but underwater on a wreck it's a godsend because any sediment stirred up is then slowly washed away from the wreck restoring the visibility.

This 1/4 knot current is of course almost certainly going in the opposite direction to the wind. What we did notice is that in the Southern Baltic the wind was gentle during the night and built up during the day maxing out after lunch before calming down again by tea time. I suspect this is caused by the European land mass warming up creating lift and pulling in air from across the Baltic.

Not sure what happens on the Swedish coast to the W, but the current is noticeable on the south side of the island of Bornholm. There is a Russian diesel electric sub sat there upright in 30m with a very nice phosphor bronze prop on it. I did manage to lift up the locking handle for the hatch in front of the conning tower, but didn't have a big enough crowbar to turn the handle and open her up, shame.

Pete

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

.. .

Bummer about the retirement issue .. I'm in my 12th year [emoji2]

Ah, it's not a bummer. I promised myself when I was still a youngster that I would never do anything for a living, that I'd want to retire from. Kept my promise

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Pete7

There is also 1/4 knot of current moving from the north down past the E coast and Poland, across the top of Germany and out past Denmark. Presumably due to fresh water melt moving down from the north. It isn't really evident on the surface but underwater on a wreck it's a godsend because any sediment stirred up is then slowly washed away from the wreck restoring the visibility.

This 1/4 knot current is of course almost certainly going in the opposite direction to the wind. What we did notice is that in the Southern Baltic the wind was gentle during the night and built up during the day maxing out after lunch before calming down again by tea time. I suspect this is caused by the European land mass warming up creating lift and pulling in air from across the Baltic.

Not sure what happens on the Swedish coast to the W, but the current is noticeable on the south side of the island of Bornholm. There is a Russian diesel electric sub sat there upright in 30m with a very nice phosphor bronze prop on it. I did manage to lift up the locking handle for the hatch in front of the conning tower, but didn't have a big enough crowbar to turn the handle and open her up, shame.

Pete

Something akin to the above. Where you map the predicted temp changes for the day, & look at how they affect the normal daily wind patterns, so as to take advantage of small, but significant, out of the ordinary variances.
Along with, of course, mapping sea surface temps in order to get a 2ndary way to track currents. The first one being real time measurements, & then taking educated guesses at how they'll shift through the day.

Plus the basics; minimize drag (air & water), optimize weight placement onboard, tune the rig for windward work & predicted conditions, etc. And look at your passage notes from years past, including using them to make cheat sheets, & lists of key trend indicators.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Spoken like someone who has done the 1400 miles to Montt in the summer.. [emoji3]

Ha Ping, I haven't yet had that particular pleasure. Sailed into Pueto Montt and done the loop in the beagle and the Cape Horn run a few times on the down and back from the penisular. Hopefully one day I will get a chance to complete the bit in between, even if it means a long bash..

DH, on the bashing to windward stuff, sometimes hugging the shore is the go, playing eddys and getting a bit of shelter from the seas. Other times getting well offshore into easier seas and away from overfalls and tide helps.

Sounds like you have all the theory about playing the long term windshifts. One other idea is playing the local topography windshifts. Eg the wind drawing around headlands can give you a decent lift both ways if you play it right. And the wind funneling down valleys can be more favorible than the offshore winds. My brother BooBoo would be a good one to ask about this stuff, he's done very well racing in some long and very nasty shorthanded windward legs.

I know of a few tidal rips where going well inshore is far better than going wide. Still unpleasant, but for a much shorter time period. But sailing your coastline you know all about this stuff. Frankly I am pretty impressed you can still get anywhere near a 5 knot VMG dead to windward under sail in a seaway. I am usually grinning if I can get 3 knots.

[Snowpetrel]

Heres an interesting article.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/fastnet...vigation-66617

[valhalla360]

Do you live on the boat in the winter?

Can you just leave it in Finland and fly home?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Ha Ping, I haven't yet had that particular pleasure. Sailed into Pueto Montt and done the loop in the beagle and the Cape Horn run a few times on the down and back from the penisular. Hopefully one day I will get a chance to complete the bit in between, even if it means a long bash..

DH, on the bashing to windward stuff, sometimes hugging the shore is the go, playing eddys and getting a bit of shelter from the seas. Other times getting well offshore into easier seas and away from overfalls and tide helps.

Sounds like you have all the theory about playing the long term windshifts. One other idea is playing the local topography windshifts. Eg the wind drawing around headlands can give you a decent lift both ways if you play it right. And the wind funneling down valleys can be more favorible than the offshore winds. My brother BooBoo would be a good one to ask about this stuff, he's done very well racing in some long and very nasty shorthanded windward legs.

I know of a few tidal rips where going well inshore is far better than going wide. Still unpleasant, but for a much shorter time period. But sailing your coastline you know all about this stuff. Frankly I am pretty impressed you can still get anywhere near a 5 knot VMG dead to windward under sail in a seaway. I am usually grinning if I can get 3 knots.

I had most of these thoughts earlier as well. Just wasn't yet caffeinated enough to put them into text.

[estarzinger]

Dock,

Do you have expedition or adreana on board? They are quite useful tools when you are considering questions of weather strategy.

There are other programs that focus on sailing tactics (e.g. Tack on this shift or not). I don't have as much experience with them so can't really comment on their usefulness.

To help them work at your best, you do need some decent polars. Which raises a second question - how much work have you done to find the best vmg angle in different wave conditions? The optimal angle will differ (depending on wave shape) and a few degrees will make a significant difference at the end of a long day.

Into difficult wave shapes we found hawk significantly faster when heeled over rather more than normal - 25 degree of heel was fastest in the worst of the sort of conditions . . . When normally under 20 was fastest in better/smoother conditions.

I'v twice done the 1500 mile upwind in the Chilean channels that the guys mention above - once as a sailing purist (the first time), and the second motor sailing 90% of the way. You can guess which was easier and faster, and which was more fun and challenging.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Now I start to think about improving my strategy.

I don't think you have a strategic problem. Your plan is good.

Your tactics, as described, aren't bad but that's where you have the most to gain.

Your Moody is a cutter rigged sloop which usually means you fly the headsail or the staysail, but not both.

You have the sails you have and I for one will not send you out to buy more. Start with what you have. My choices are two headsails, an ocean #3 (100%) and a very light #2 (135%). We won't talk about my two spinnakers. *grin* Making ground to windward they aren't relevant. When the wind is up there comes a point when rolling up the headsail and downshifting to the staysail will move you faster at a higher angle. When the wind is really up you may gain by dropping the headsail and lashing it on the side deck to reduce windage. That can buy you 5° or more to windward. What other windage can you reduce?

Do you have a backstay adjuster and/or running backstays? Getting the sag out of the forestay (light to mid winds) or the inner forestay (real wind) makes a huge difference in pointing. You may be on the favored tack but pointing makes a big difference.

Watch VMG. It matters. Sometimes cracking off will make the ride more comfortable and make more progress toward your goal. You have to run the numbers, try, measure, and adjust.

Stopping really hurts. Keep going.

Sail trim counts.

If you want to chat on this and have Skype or Viber we can walk through Northwood and Hamburg synoptics and talk about tactics.

[Cherod]

One thing we did learn on recent N Sea crossing was to use the current conditions cos for sure they are going to change soon !!