From The Netherlands to Med....

[Reddai]

Originally Posted by Paul Kelly

If you draw 1.4m or less there's a more attractive route than going via N Spain and Portugal. You can sail along the N French coast in fairly easy hops and then down the W Brittany coast which has some lovely ports - Camaret, Audierne, Concarneau etc and down to Bordeaux and from there down through the Canal Du Midi which I think links up with one of the other canals and comes out at Port St Louis a bit West of Marseilles. You can then coastal hop to Italy.

You didn't say where in Italy you are trying to get to!

There is a great on;line planning tool here OpenSeaMap - The free nautical chart You can plan routes and measure distances and it also gives you your waypoints which you can download into an Excel spreadsheet.

The route I am suggesting is shorter than going via Gibraltar, it also takes in some really lovely ports and has some canal aspects but not as much as picking up a canal in N France.

The canal du midi was on option too, but it would me one more mast up / down... and I'm a bit concerned about the draw... I mean, my boat has 1.4mt so in theory it would pass but I've read about boats stuck in the middle of the canal in summer due to drought periods and I don't know what is the "margin of safety" .
Do you know the Canal du midi ? what do you think ?
Final destination will be Roma, but I'm not concerned about the portion of the trip in the med as I have already a friend (skipper) that will help from Nice to Roma...

--
Marco

[Reddai]

Originally Posted by Dody

Honestly Marco, right now I can't see a reason why you shouldn't be capable to do the locks or the route along the coast, or even across Biscay. Watching your video, you've already done your first passage! And as it looks like, not even with sunshiny weather and lovely temperatures!

Alright, you were with 2 people. Couldn't your wife join you so you could do the trip south together? I'm sure this would be a wonderful experience for both of you! If time is a matter, you could always do it in stages. Leave the boat somwhere for a while and come back to continue the trip (I think someone earlier suggested that as well).

The inland waterways are more protected, but you shouldn't scare yourself off the coastal route. Whatever is missing one can learn. And having your boat for a while means I'm sure you've already learned quite a lot. None of us was born knowing everything about sailing, we all had to go through this process.

Fair winds
Dody

Thanks Dody
When I read your message I started feeling again optimistic and thinking ... "It can be done"

Marco

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Reddai

The canal du midi was on option too, but it would me one more mast up / down... and I'm a bit concerned about the draw... I mean, my boat has 1.4mt so in theory it would pass but I've read about boats stuck in the middle of the canal in summer due to drought periods and I don't know what is the "margin of safety" .
Do you know the Canal du midi ? what do you think ?

1.4m sounds like the manufacturers figures and probably involves a completely empty boat. Now add on a tonne of cruising stuff we all find necessary even in a small yacht and you are going down. Also you might draw 1.4m in the cold salt water of Northern Europe, but warm freshwater of a southern French canal, well that might be a bit more.

From Rotterdam, you could only make the Channel Islands in two weeks because the prevailing weather is winds from the SW for 75% of the time and you are trying to go down the English Channel against them. Yo might get lucky with no wind or even an Easterly, but don't count on it.

I would do the canal route south from Le Harve. so what if the engine breaks down, you just drift to the side of the canal and we are talking quite narrow still water canals for the most part, not large rivers with strong currents like the Rhine.

Pete

[Dody]

Originally Posted by Reddai

Wow,
I did not expect that many messages ))
Many, many thanks to everybody... I read all of them carefully and all have valid points that raised more and more doubts and questions

Sea Route:

Some of you made me thinking again about doing the trip in a couple of seasons... It would be a good option, with an experienced skipper of course.
Does anybody know how much it would cost to keep the boat on dry for the winter in Portugal ? May be in Vigo...?
I sailed only once in the Northern Sea (We did one, basic, RYA course), I've no idea how long does it take to reach Portugal from Rotterdam... Would two weeks be enough ?

Canal route:

• What scares me the most are the commercial ships in the locks: they simply don't care about your presence and keep the engines running. During our transfer to Roermond with the mast down, I lost by mistake one rope in a lock and the current created by a commercial boat in the lock made our bow going adrift and the mast smashing the side of the lock
• Another thing that worries me is that in the canals I have to rely 100% on the engine... what if something happens in the canal ? At sea, I'd try to sail as much as possible, and a back up would be the engine... In the canals there is no back up... and if something goes wrong I imagine myself going adrift in the canals... scary!

Wife Joining:
there is no way to convince her to join me in the transfer... she would feel too much pressure


PS Sorry for my English!

--
Marco

Marco, there is no guarantee of course, but if you pick your weather alright and keep on going without stopping for more than a night in few places it is possible to get from Rotterdam to Portugal in 2 weeks time. 3 weeks would make it much more relaxed though.


I don't know about prices for Vigo or other places, but in Nazaré, which is about halfway down the west coast of the Iberian Peninsula, prices for Travellift (1 operation) for a 8.22 m boat (27 ft) is 90.75 Euro and 1 month on the drydock 90.75 Euro, supports for the boat come extra. But actually, unless you want to do the antifouling or other things there is no real need to go on the drydock. Nazaré and many other places have ports which are quite safe to leave the boat all year in the water.


Shame about your wife feeling under pressure. In a way I can understand as you want "to get the job done" kind of thing. But let's say Galicia, there are so many lovely places in the Rias where you can drop the hook and leisurely enjoy a whole summer worth of swimming and relaxing. The west coast of Portugal has some lovely places worth a visit, and further down, on the Algarve is Holiday-Country. It's one thing to rush on, it's a completely different thing to enjoy, relax and discover.


Good luck and fair winds
Dody

[valhalla360]

First question is how much time do you have available to do the move? Big difference between a leisurely 2-3month trip and a 2week delivery trip.

The canals aren't hard but you really do want a second hand for the locks. If your motor dies, generally float to the side of the canal, tie off and figure it out while tied up. Yes, you do want a reasonably reliable engine.

Offshore, if you are pressed for time, it's easy to go out in bad conditions.

If you are really pressed for time, the trip likely won't be fun and it may be better once you factor in all the travel costs, broken & worn equipment just to pay for it to be trucked.

Don't forget the option of selling and buying locally. I'm not sure what the value of your boat is but if you can sell your current one quickly, you can pick up another at your leisure.

[Reddai]

Originally Posted by onavegador

From the Netherlands to the Med the easiest route for a beginner is over the canals. From the Netherlands head to Maastricht then on the Maas to Namur/Belgium and after on the Meuse (French for Maas) to Pagny sur Meuse. All locks upstream. From Pagny to the beginning of the Canal des Vosges there are about 10 locks downstream. On the canal des Vosges there are 49 locks upstream. After again on the Canal des Vosges are 46 locks downstream. The following river is the Saone with all the 24 locks downstream and from Lyon the River Rhone with 12 locks downstream.
I mention upstream what means tha there is more work to pass the lock, climbing a ladder what you do not do when passing a lock downstream.
I passed in the time more than 50 locks singlehanded after one or two locks you know the system. ONE thing not to forget go forward regularly and tell the employees then you like to stop so they can relay on you.
[...]
James

Ehi James,
many thanks!
How long would it take to Port St. Louis du Rhone from Maastricht according to your experience ?

--
Marco

[Reddai]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

First question is how much time do you have available to do the move? Big difference between a leisurely 2-3month trip and a 2week delivery trip.

The canals aren't hard but you really do want a second hand for the locks. If your motor dies, generally float to the side of the canal, tie off and figure it out while tied up. Yes, you do want a reasonably reliable engine.

Offshore, if you are pressed for time, it's easy to go out in bad conditions.

If you are really pressed for time, the trip likely won't be fun and it may be better once you factor in all the travel costs, broken & worn equipment just to pay for it to be trucked.

Don't forget the option of selling and buying locally. I'm not sure what the value of your boat is but if you can sell your current one quickly, you can pick up another at your leisure.

I should have available 1 month to do the trip, a stop for winter is an option.
And... I know, selling the boat is an option but I'm very fond of her...
I'd like to try to bring her with us

--
Marco

[Dody]

Originally Posted by Reddai

Ehi James,
many thanks!
How long would it take to Port St. Louis du Rhone from Maastricht according to your experience ?

--
Marco

Many friends of mine (more than 40 boats) have done the canals from different places in Holland to Port St. Louis in 4 weeks. I've never done it myself, so I have no idea if it might be possible to do that faster.


Fair winds Dody

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by Reddai

I should have available 1 month to do the trip, a stop for winter is an option.
And... I know, selling the boat is an option but I'm very fond of her...
I'd like to try to bring her with us

--
Marco

If you only have a month forget canals. You can usually only travel in daylight and with the lock you average speed may be down to 3-4kn. 50 miles per day would be the best you could hope for. At sea making 5kn you would do 100-125 miles per day. The relaxed way to do it is in about 300mile hops then stop for a day. There are some bits where you can day sail but by the time you have got in and out of port it takes you down to 60 miles per day again.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Reddai

I should have available 1 month to do the trip, a stop for winter is an option.

Unless you are ready to blast it out as an offshore passage (or two), I would suggest the canals.

With only a month, too much pressure coastal hopping to wait out a week or so of bad weather.

On the canals anything short of the worst weather you can keep going.

[sveinung]

There's a lot of adventurers and travelers out there, having an extra pair of hands is probably all the extra confidence you need.
Spread the word on Facebook and crew finder pages and I'm sure you'll find line handlers to go with you down the locks. After a week maybe you're confident enough to continue alone and you're on your way.
Don't sell or truck it, that wouldn't make for any good stories or memories to tell later!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

If you only have a month forget canals. You can usually only travel in daylight and with the lock you average speed may be down to 3-4kn. 50 miles per day would be the best you could hope for. At sea making 5kn you would do 100-125 miles per day. The relaxed way to do it is in about 300mile hops then stop for a day. There are some bits where you can day sail but by the time you have got in and out of port it takes you down to 60 miles per day again.

I am not sure a novice sailor will be able to make 5 knots tacking into the prevailing SW winds with the large volume of traffic and huge 8m tides in the English Channel on a 27ft yacht.

Do you agree?

Would the canals be safer?

BTW, love the square sail, want one.

Pete

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

If you only have a month forget canals. You can usually only travel in daylight and with the lock you average speed may be down to 3-4kn. 50 miles per day would be the best you could hope for. At sea making 5kn you would do 100-125 miles per day. The relaxed way to do it is in about 300mile hops then stop for a day. There are some bits where you can day sail but by the time you have got in and out of port it takes you down to 60 miles per day again.

From Amsterdam to Marseilles, is around 2400 miles on the outside.
Via the canal system, you are around 900-1000miles.

So even at half the daily mileage, you have a better shot at making it in a month. Plus if you get a week of bad weather, it may not be fun but you can keep going on the canal system...outside, you may have to run for a safe haven and hunker down.

[andypag]

Following Rhine-Main-Danube, what big costs should I be aware of?



Fuel sounds like a big one going against the current.
Tows

Mast stepping and resetting
And thing else I should think about? Are all the locks free? Canal permits?