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Old 14-12-2013, 14:12   #1066
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by sck5 View Post
"{However, I assume that as the stand-on vessel they are still required to stay on course"

Well, maybe. Last time I ran into a bunch of fishing boats they were obviously maneuvering to chase schools of fish I couldnt see and were randomly turning this way and that. I imagine the helmsman had his eyes glued to the fishfinder screen. Rather than claim he ought to have kept a lookout for me I thought the best thing might be to steer well clear of him.
Fishing vessels that are chasing fish are not restricted in their ability to maneuver IMHO. Of course that does not keep you from being run down.

Rule 3 (d)


(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing” means any vessel fishing with
nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability,
but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing
apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.
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Old 14-12-2013, 14:23   #1067
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by SvenG View Post
That's what I would have guessed. So you could end up dead wrong but you also have to make sure that your evasive maneuvers are abundantly clear so there can be no claim that you caused any collision by your maneuvering.

Thx.



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That, of course, assumes that someone on the fishing boat is actually watching and aware of your existence... and that is too often not true.

So, abundantly clear isn't enough... ya gotta get out of their "strike zone" IME.

The ones that scare me are the shrimpers off the East coast of Oz. They often go in gangs, 10-15 boats in line abeam, at night, running and aspect lights obscured by their megawatt deck lights. Yikes!

But I do like the shrimp they bring in!

Jim
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Old 14-12-2013, 15:06   #1068
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
Absolutely! "Early and apparent" maneuver to avoid a collision.
Except when it doesn't.

So far in this thread it is proposed that if Riga II had,
  • stood a proper watch
  • correctly identified the ship
  • radar on
  • correctly interpreted AIS data
  • held to one side of the preferred route
  • hailed the ship on VHF
  • held constant course so near the collision point
  • made course change early and obvious
a collision would have been avoided.

I'll tell you that other than AIS I did all those things but still had a very close call which for the grace of God was not a collision.
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Old 14-12-2013, 15:21   #1069
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

This talk of fishing fleets reminds me of an strange encounter very close to St George's reef off N. California. Night time in 6' swell with 20 kts wind. A group of trawlers working the grounds with an estimated 300' receiver ship. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed how that ship could spin on a dime.
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Old 14-12-2013, 15:42   #1070
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Originally Posted by David M View Post
I am reading situation after situation where if the person on the yacht had got on the VHF and tried to make passing arrangements with the ship that things would have been predictable and therefore much safer.

Why are so many non-professional boaters so seemingly frightened of making radio contact with a ship? If there is any doubt at all, professionals make radio contact with each other long before a meeting, crossing or overtaking situation occurs in order to make passing arrangements.

Lights and dayshapes only describe status and not necessarily intent. You are far better off getting on the VHF to find out intent. It might also make a dull watch more interesting to talk to someone.

Also, if it is obvious on which side you are going to pass then dont start throwing in tacks a mile or two before your CPA. The best way to get in to a collison is to become unpredictable. Really, you need to make radio contact long before you get this close...long before the COLREG's start applying.

Going right to avoid a collision is the unspoken intenational "rule" for avoiding collision. I was taught this at the maritime academy. Or better defined, you almost never go left to avoid a collision.
I presume you sail in the US , in my experience few in watch crew speak good English and secondly almost none respond to a position based ID , so you need AIS , and since you have AIS , you don't need to call them. ......!!!

Dave
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Old 14-12-2013, 15:44   #1071
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Custom 30, in response to your post #1044,

Quote, They assume they have the right of way because they are fishing, Unquote.

[SIZE="5"]They DO have the right of way when they are fishing. It's in the Colregs.[SIZE="5"]


And this is true also when there are flocks of them. You are burdened to get through the fleet of fisherpeople safely, without interfering with them. Even when you have to gybe or take down a sail. This has nothing to do with what they may assume, it's YOUR responsibility.

Yes, I said I assumed they were fishing, and altered when they were miles away.

From the beginning I knew I was the give-way boat, but their seemingly (at the time) erratic, unpredictable course changes made it impossible to positively give way. as hard as I tried.

I have no problem with the giving way part, but without their intentions being clear, when they are constantly altering course to and fro, it would be great if someone were at least monitoring the VHF.

From the beginning (a glow over the horizon) I altered course to avoid them, over and over. I tried to raise them on the VHF to find out what to do to avoid them, over and over for 15 minutes. I learned by asking at my next port that they sometimes monitor 18, but never 16.

I was never saying I didn't need to give way, I tried to raise them, I altered over and over, yet I was just lucky there wasn't a waypoint to port programmed in when I turned around. The difference in speed means there was a window there where if the boat had turned to port, I was powerless mathematically to avoid.

What I am saying is that these are essentially computer operated ghost ships, who steer erratic courses known only to them, who have no one on watch, and no one monitoring the radio.

If the bottom contour, and therefore his course had made another drastic turn to his port side during the last 1/4 mile, even at full speed I could not have avoided him by going in any direction. There was absolutely no way to know what he was going to do.

My point is that when men steered fishing boats on erratic courses they were also watching. The situation above would be very unlikely with a man at the helm. My masthead tri is visible in 8 foot seas for a long way. A real live helmsman would have been yelling at me on the radio, telling me exactly where he wanted me, so I could comply. And I gladly would have.

Even AIS would not have helped, it could have told me nothing more than what I already knew.

'
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Old 14-12-2013, 15:46   #1072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
This talk of fishing fleets reminds me of an strange encounter very close to St George's reef off N. California. Night time in 6' swell with 20 kts wind. A group of trawlers working the grounds with an estimated 300' receiver ship. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed how that ship could spin on a dime.
Grr me and fishing vessels , off A Coruna , the fishermen make hassling yachts at 2am , a blood sport.

Mind you I rember sailing close to the codling bank in the Irish Sea in a F8 , nasty nasty sea running , going over a big wave and nearly ending up in the trawlers galley. Boy was it impressive watching the seas break over the trawler as ship turned in those big seas. ( again in the middle of the night )

Dave
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Old 14-12-2013, 15:51   #1073
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
and since you have AIS , you don't need to call them. ......!!!
That's true if you are sitting in your slip.



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Old 14-12-2013, 16:10   #1074
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Quote:
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That's true if you are sitting in your slip.

-Sven
My experience is 1 in 10 will answer , most ignore you. Especially if you try calling by giving their position. If the ships are local , ( ferries say off the coast of Spain for example ) they ill be chattering away in Spanish and are not inclined to pick up a VHF call from some WAFFI

Interesting the MCA in the UK frowns on the use of VHF. To " organise " passing situations

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Old 14-12-2013, 16:19   #1075
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
My experience is 1 in 10 will answer , most ignore you.
I've had two ignore our hails by name (using AIS to ID). One I already mentioned earlier (Pantera Rose) and the other was a Mexican tanker outside La Paz. In every other case I have gotten a polite reply to my hail and we have parted with a good understanding of each others' intentions. Getting into and out of LA Harbor across the shipping lanes can at times be almost impossible unless you establish voice communication, but fortunately we don't have to contend with that gauntlet any longer.

The reverse is also true, at night I have had aircraft carriers and tankers hail us by name to either ask our intention or request that we do/not do something.

Sure I could just have been lucky so far.


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Old 14-12-2013, 16:25   #1076
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Originally Posted by SvenG View Post

I've had two ignore our hails by name (using AIS to ID). One I already mentioned earlier (Pantera Rose) and the other was a Mexican tanker outside La Paz. In every other case I have gotten a polite reply to my hail and we have parted with a good understanding of each others' intentions. Getting into and out of LA Harbor across the shipping lanes can at times be almost impossible unless you establish voice communication, but fortunately we don't have to contend with that gauntlet any longer.

The reverse is also true, at night I have had aircraft carriers and tankers hail us by name to either ask our intention or request that we do/not do something.

Sure I could just have been lucky so far.

-Sven
Since I've sailed with AIS transponders , I rarely find the need to call a ship in regards a passing manoeuvre. Sometimes when the watch is bored , I get a call from the bridge for a chat. Happened off Greece recently, one of the curses of AIS transponders I guess.

Around my home waters , yachts talking to ships is very rare. I do notice in US waters there is far more reliance on VHF and its see all the time. No so this side of the pond

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Old 14-12-2013, 16:32   #1077
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I do notice in US waters there is far more reliance on VHF and its see all the time. No so this side of the pond
Pretty true in Sweden (the Baltic) too. We used to bring our VHF handhelds for use during the summer but there really was no need.

The first cellphones we ever saw belonged boaters in harbors calling home, a few years before cellphones became popular in the US.



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Old 14-12-2013, 16:36   #1078
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Pretty true in Sweden (the Baltic) too. We used to bring our VHF handhelds for use during the summer but there really was no need.

The first cellphones we ever saw belonged boaters in harbors calling home, a few years before cellphones became popular in the US.

-Sven
It's funny how cell phones took so long to be established in the US isn't it. And then even texting took even longer. One of those things I think

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Old 14-12-2013, 16:42   #1079
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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It's funny how cell phones took so long to be established in the US isn't it.
Yup, but maybe it was actually better before their general acceptance



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Old 14-12-2013, 18:21   #1080
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Presumably most ships with AIS will respond to a direct call via DSC. It is not a requirement for ships to monitor Ch 16 I think.
What is your experience - any better with DSC?
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