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Old 16-07-2013, 17:37   #976
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The internet feeds are NOT to be used for navigation information.
Agree, possibly worse than nothing.

Seen what the Swedish are up to?

http://www.panbo.com/archives/2013/0..._sweden_2.html
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Old 16-07-2013, 19:34   #977
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Red face Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Agree, possibly worse than nothing.

Seen what the Swedish are up to?

Panbo: The Marine Electronics Hub: Seapilot & True Heading, AIS in Sweden #2
There are about a dozen 'pay systems' around the world that are like this. I guess it just depends on IF you want to pay for the data.
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Old 16-07-2013, 21:41   #978
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Marine Traffic is COMPLETELY dependent on public input of the raw data. This is how MT works. The actual AIS info you and I receive is ONLY what YOUR and MINE ais actually receives. Not everyone receives the same identical info. your reception depends on how well your individual AIS is working. (thus the comments about antenna height, and user settings.)

On my particular tug, I had the original laptop hooked up to the AIS data plug, and the internet, which allowed me to transmit the vessels nearby me to MT. It was neat seeing the 'cloud' of coverage following me around in areas that have poor base station coverage. If you look on the MT website, it shows you how to download their raw data program, which will transmit it live, as long as you have internet coverage.

I had to stop, because the company replaced our laptops with NON serial port ones, and I can't figure out how to hook up a USB port to the NEMA plug on my AIS.
I have a USB serial adapter that I use for one of the boats on which I teach.
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Old 29-07-2013, 10:42   #979
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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In my opinion , I'm now with the Italian delegation to the IMO , consideration should be given to suspending power gives way to sail , certainly for vessels over 50m !!

Dave
I disagree with this. In most cases, it will put the give way onus on the boat with the least means of ascertaining close quarter situations, and in many case, the boat with the least experience at figuring out close quarter situations.
Fine to duck out of a situation with the boats 8 miles apart, but when your down to six miles, the colregs need to be applied otherwise we have a free for all.
And, it is not always the case that a small sailboat is more maneuverable than a power driven vessel. If you are in light winds making a couple of knots, a 90 or 180 degree turn is not going to make a big change in the outcome if your trying to dodge a 30kt box boat. Not all sail boats have engines, and many that do, will find that it picks an inopportune moment to not start. At the other extreme, you might find yourself out in Force 7 or 8, or worse, do you want to be the boat that has to give way.
I'd be more than happy to see the colregs stay pretty much as they are.

If the Italian Delegation to IMO want to press for any changes, it should be pressing for better standards of watchkeeping, what ever next?, they will be wanting islands to give way to cruise ships.
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Old 29-07-2013, 11:01   #980
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
I disagree with this. In most cases, it will put the give way onus on the boat with the least means of ascertaining close quarter situations, and in many case, the boat with the least experience at figuring out close quarter situations.
Fine to duck out of a situation with the boats 8 miles apart, but when your down to six miles, the colregs need to be applied otherwise we have a free for all.
And, it is not always the case that a small sailboat is more maneuverable than a power driven vessel. If you are in light winds making a couple of knots, a 90 or 180 degree turn is not going to make a big change in the outcome if your trying to dodge a 30kt box boat. Not all sail boats have engines, and many that do, will find that it picks an inopportune moment to not start. At the other extreme, you might find yourself out in Force 7 or 8, or worse, do you want to be the boat that has to give way.
I'd be more than happy to see the colregs stay pretty much as they are.

If the Italian Delegation to IMO want to press for any changes, it should be pressing for better standards of watchkeeping, what ever next?, they will be wanting islands to give way to cruise ships.
Yes but the 99.9% of the time that the sailboat is WAY more maneuverable than the tanker. Changing the rule shouldn't crimp the other COLREGs that says the tanker shouldn't run down the sailboat that 0.1% it can't avoid the tanker's path.

If playing around big boys...there are many ways to avoid or communicate with the big boys...and as a last resort and you are unable "to comply with the colregs"...hoist 2 balls or 2 red lights and the tanker now is required to avoid you....and for those that say that something specific needs to be wrong to claim not under command...well then get run over...I don't care...
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Old 29-07-2013, 11:29   #981
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

OK we all entitled to our opinion.
Having spent 4 years as Mate on tankers ranging in size from 250,000 to 520,000 tonnes, it no big hardships to alter course, its a bit of a misconception that these ships are not maneuverable. In the open ocean, they should have no problem in seeing, and altering course for a sailboat.
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Old 29-07-2013, 11:35   #982
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
OK we all entitled to our opinion.
Having spent 4 years as Mate on tankers ranging in size from 250,000 to 520,000 tonnes, it no big hardships to alter course, its a bit of a misconception that these ships are not maneuverable. In the open ocean, they should have no problem in seeing, and altering course for a sailboat.

Well, but we started out talking about when freighters are not very maneuverable. The example I used was in a channel, since that is so often the situation here. No boat or ship is always maneuverable. I don't think anyone ever said freighters are not maneuverable. They'd lose a lot of the point of having them, wouldn't they?
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Old 29-07-2013, 12:48   #983
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
OK we all entitled to our opinion.
Having spent 4 years as Mate on tankers ranging in size from 250,000 to 520,000 tonnes, it no big hardships to alter course, its a bit of a misconception that these ships are not maneuverable. In the open ocean, they should have no problem in seeing, and altering course for a sailboat.
There are many misconceptions about big ships beyond the fictitious lack of maneuverability you mention, including the bizarre supposition that no one is on watch and the erroneous contention that they won't respond to a hail on the VHF.
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Old 29-07-2013, 13:58   #984
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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There are many misconceptions about big ships beyond the fictitious lack of maneuverability you mention, including the bizarre supposition that no one is on watch and the erroneous contention that they won't respond to a hail on the VHF.
+1

I have never had a problem hailing a big ship in blue water. Last summer I had a couple of chats with tuna fishing boats north of Hawaii.
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Old 29-07-2013, 14:19   #985
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pirate Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
There are many misconceptions about big ships beyond the fictitious lack of maneuverability you mention, including the bizarre supposition that no one is on watch and the erroneous contention that they won't respond to a hail on the VHF.
Actually there are fewer and fewer ships that will respond to a call onCh16... until you get close enough to read their name.. if you cannot identify them they'll ignore you.
However if you've AIS the names right there on the screen so they are forced to answer the PITA in the toy boat...
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Old 29-07-2013, 14:32   #986
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

Having been a mate on several largish type cargo ships, 894' being the largest, I have never ignored a VHF call on 16, I cannot speak to the other watches, but on mine the calls were answered. As far as maneuverability goes, I guess it depends on your definition. If you have lots of sea room, and water depth, yes you can miss a target, if you can see it or detect it on radar. It still is not as agile as say a 220' supply vessel. And the whole stopping thing, not really practical unless you can anticipate a good ways in advance. The steam ship I was on required 30 minute heads up to the engine room, and specify the number of turns you wanted. Of course that may have been a Union rule rather than an operational necessity.
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Old 29-07-2013, 15:17   #987
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Actually there are fewer and fewer ships that will respond to a call onCh16... until you get close enough to read their name.. if you cannot identify them they'll ignore you.
However if you've AIS the names right there on the screen so they are forced to answer the PITA in the toy boat...
Might be a reason for that, in higher traffic areas anyway...


http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga-mnoti...8E08C2F38A0072

....
7. There have been a significant number of collisions where subsequent investigation has found that at some stage before impact, one or both parties were using VHF radio in an attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF radio in these circumstances is not always helpful and may even prove to be dangerous.
.....
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Old 29-07-2013, 15:40   #988
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pirate Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Might be a reason for that, in higher traffic areas anyway...


Guidance & Regulations

....
7. There have been a significant number of collisions where subsequent investigation has found that at some stage before impact, one or both parties were using VHF radio in an attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF radio in these circumstances is not always helpful and may even prove to be dangerous.
.....
Gt Oz Bight.... mid Atlantic... S Pacific... if you cant call them by name they will not reply... I'm not talking emergency situations just requests for weather updates... being at the 'Bottom' few boats I get have Navtex etc and though its not essential, the occasional 'Heads up' on the weather is nice.
Med is no sweat... excellent weather on VHF..

Carib is funny... 3 days out of SMX one guy came back with "Chill Mon... go back to bed" and another one N of Puerto Rico.." its a gale to the N, 40-50kts.... S its bad... but here its very nice... safe journey..."
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Old 30-07-2013, 02:19   #989
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Well, but we started out talking about when freighters are not very maneuverable. The example I used was in a channel, since that is so often the situation here. No boat or ship is always maneuverable. I don't think anyone ever said freighters are not maneuverable. They'd lose a lot of the point of having them, wouldn't they?
Hi Raku

If the debate was meant to be limited to navigating in a channel, then there is no need for the debate, it is covered in the Colregs, sailing vessels and vessels less than 20m are not to impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel.
The confusing bit is knowing if another vessel can only navigate within the channel, which is where experience is needed.
Many ports and harbours will make it easier with local regulation to the effect that pleasure craft keep well clear of commercial traffic.
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Old 30-07-2013, 03:43   #990
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Hi Raku

If the debate was meant to be limited to navigating in a channel, then there is no need for the debate, it is covered in the Colregs, sailing vessels and vessels less than 20m are not to impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel.
The confusing bit is knowing if another vessel can only navigate within the channel, which is where experience is needed.
Many ports and harbours will make it easier with local regulation to the effect that pleasure craft keep well clear of commercial traffic.

Nigel, I don't think anyone intended to "debate" about who has the right of way in channels. It's just that this was an example used of when a freighter might have limited maneuverability. It's common where I am because most of Tampa Bay is really very shallow, so if you use the slightest bit of brain power -- and a chart -- there should be no doubt where one should expect to see freighters. They have to stay in the channel in Tampa Bay and for some distance beyond; it's the only place deep enough for them.

There was a lot of discussion that spun off of that. There *are* places where freighters can't maneuver much, and that's where the discussion comes in. The discussion ran its course some time ago IMO.
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