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Old 17-09-2012, 17:23   #61
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I know you early have stated you didn't take any pictures; do you know if the crew (yours or the freighter) perhaps did? It would be great to see.

What an experience! That'll go down as a "I remember when".
I have 20 yr old memories that still give me the shivers. I doubt looking at a 40' wall of steel on the open waters in a urgent situation would constitute a fond memory.
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:11   #62
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Re: Clarification here

[QUOTE=Bash;1038284]That kind of thinking is going to create more problems than it solves. When the stand-on vessel behaves erratically, it can throw a wrench into the whole system. We shouldn't have to be guessing what constitutes "plain common sense" to Tony B and his brethren. The COLREGS are designed to prevent collisions by establishing predictable behaviors in crossing situations. QUOTE]

Maybe you should have read all of my previous posts in this thread before you commented on something that I summarized on.
Besides, If I stay clear of larger vessels, how is that behaving erratically?
Staying clear means that I wont be crossing his path or even near enough to him to require passing signals. To the larger vessel, I would be a non-issue. As for leaving a channel because a freighter is bearing down on me with my top speed of only 6 kts, how is that a danger? He cant hit me if he is constrained by draft and I am not?
Do yourself a favor and read all of my previous posts in the thread before condeming.
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:24   #63
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Let Me say this !!Take all the col regs and all the other printed rules and use em for what there worth, T-Paper!! Cus if your stupid enough to try and be the sailboat or power boat IN THE RIGHT !! and mess about with any vessel even twice your size, I will be glad to dive on your wreck for stuff I can use aboard my boat !!

Interesting take on the situation. As a commercial skipper I need to know and and apply the Colregs. Now my tug displaces 6,000 tonnes, lets say that I have a tanker of about 350,000 tonnes on a steady bearing about 4 points to port. Based on your understanding of the colregs, I should now take action to avoid a close quarters situation. I think not. You did say power boat in your statement.
Instead I will stand on, and if they do not take action, then, and only then will I take action.
Little boats out at sea making up their own rule as they go along can be a real menace.
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:31   #64
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Wow! Another great one that proves people interpret the written language differently.

I know 85% of drivers think they are above average.

I bet 85% of boaters think the same thing.

When regular car drivers get a chance to interact (calmly) with professionals they find out they frequently are more of a problem than a solution, given specific instances.

Some here seem to think the professionals and highly experienced people that are saying you need to follow the COLREGS are saying "Stand on" into some sort of collision.

They are not. And you are not listening (reading) properly.

Sheesh!

Realize you need to know the rules (a lot more complicated than red, green and orange) and like is said, all of them.

Rule 2 - Responsibility

Quote:
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.


(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

Quote:
Follow ALL of the rules.
You are all saying the same thing really.

It's just that some don't know enough of the rules before you resort to what you think is the saving maneuver.
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:40   #65
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Interesting take on the situation. As a commercial skipper I need to know and and apply the Colregs. Now my tug displaces 6,000 tonnes, lets say that I have a tanker of about 350,000 tonnes on a steady bearing about 4 points to port. Based on your understanding of the colregs, I should now take action to avoid a close quarters situation. I think not. You did say power boat in your statement.
Instead I will stand on, and if they do not take action, then, and only then will I take action.
Little boats out at sea making up their own rule as they go along can be a real menace.

This is a CRUISER'S FORUM where I would expect to find comments/threads discussing boat sizes normally related to CRUISING, both power and sail not commercial tugs with tow encountering container ships!

Foggy
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:40   #66
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Re: Clarification here

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Besides, If I stay clear of larger vessels, how is that behaving erratically?
Staying clear means that I wont be crossing his path or even near enough to him to require passing signals. To the larger vessel, I would be a non-issue. As for leaving a channel because a freighter is bearing down on me with my top speed of only 6 kts, how is that a danger? He cant hit me if he is constrained by draft and I am not?
It seems the above is predicated on the larger vessel maintaining course and speed. By manuevering to stay clear you are basing your actions on assumptions meanwhile he may be wondering just what the heck is going on with that sailboat. At that point you have presented yourself for increased scrutiny.

Also, manuvering out of the channel to stay clear brings other risks. Depending upon bottom features (often not accurately charted outside of the channel) will you also be on the look out for obstructions thereby putting your vessel at risk?

I do not intend to get down on anyone and what I say is with my personal experience in mind (observing other small vessels as well as some of my own blunders). Just food for thought.
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:52   #67
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
This is a CRUISER'S FORUM where I would expect to find comments/threads discussing boat sizes normally related to CRUISING, both power and sail not commercial tugs with tow encountering container ships!

Foggy
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in MOST of the world where we cruise ocean waters, so to do big ships.

I find the perspective of their pilots to be invaluable in this "debate"
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Old 17-09-2012, 18:55   #68
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

We need to change the topic to something we can all agree on...

GUNS & ANCHORS!








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Old 17-09-2012, 18:56   #69
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in MOST of the world where we cruise ocean waters, so to do big ships.

I find the perspective of their pilots to be invaluable in this "debate"
OH REALLY? I certainly hope that pilot perspectives are not gained from reading or participating in recreational cruising forums! The title of this particular thread is "Freighters vs. Sailboats", not tugs in tow vs freighters, tankers, submarines, war ships, and---

Foggy
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Old 17-09-2012, 19:04   #70
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

The COLREG's also contain light configurations, whistle signals and day shapes, so even if you mistakenly think your version of common sense overrides the Rules, you still need to study the Rules.

In busy harbors the Port Captain can and usually does declare that vessels of a certain size or larger are stand on vessels. This applies to SF Bay where the Coast Guard can and will issue citations to smaller craft that interfere with ships. Therefore in certain situation it is not just the COLREG's that is the law. The COLREG's provide for local authorities to make their own laws.

Also, the COLREG's is the law in US territorial waters because the US Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's) says it is the law. Therefore in the US the COLREG's is not something you can arbitrarily choose to ignore or to abide by.

In a Coast Guard board of investigation, they are the judge, jury and prosecutor and determine the penalty. You do not have the same Constitutional rights that you have in a regular court. You don't want to end up in Coastie Court. Your chances of winning are slim to none.
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Old 17-09-2012, 19:12   #71
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You're also right! But also for the wrong reason! The Colregs also say this. The Colregs do not allow you to stand on into a collision. If you are the stand-on vessel, you are obligated to hold course and speed and give the other vessel a chance to maneuver. But if he doesn't maneuver because he can't see you or is asleep at the switch or whatever, then you are obligated under the Colregs to maneuver yourself.

I say again, there is no such thing as any "right of way" under the Colregs. Being the stand-on vessel does not mean you have any kind of right of way. It means you are supposed to give the other vessel the chance to maneuver first to resolve the situation.

But your instincts are right -- stay away from them in the first place is exactly the right "first line of defense" against a collision.

While I totally agree with your position and you are correct about International Collision Regulations you must remember that there are a lot of US boaters on this forum and the USCG Inland Navigation Rules do use the term "Right of Way". Which in my opinion was a stupid thing to do since I have heard Junior Sail Instructors tell their 10yr. old students " don't worry about the powerboat, you have right of way".
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Old 17-09-2012, 19:26   #72
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

The sailing rules use that term...which is fine.
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Old 17-09-2012, 19:34   #73
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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I do not believe anyone "recommended" such manuvering. My understanding is the point was to show how haphazard manuvering may increase the risk.

See posts 17 and 40 specifically, and several posts between those posts in general.

In the eye of the beholder, I guess. I didn't see anyone champion haphazard maneuvering either, and I can't imagine *anyone* here not knowing that any maneuver to avoid a collision should show clear intent about one's new course.
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Old 17-09-2012, 19:37   #74
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Re: Clarification here

[QUOTE=Tony B;1038457]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
That kind of thinking is going to create more problems than it solves. When the stand-on vessel behaves erratically, it can throw a wrench into the whole system. We shouldn't have to be guessing what constitutes "plain common sense" to Tony B and his brethren. The COLREGS are designed to prevent collisions by establishing predictable behaviors in crossing situations. QUOTE]

Maybe you should have read all of my previous posts in this thread before you commented on something that I summarized on.
Besides, If I stay clear of larger vessels, how is that behaving erratically?
Staying clear means that I wont be crossing his path or even near enough to him to require passing signals. To the larger vessel, I would be a non-issue. As for leaving a channel because a freighter is bearing down on me with my top speed of only 6 kts, how is that a danger? He cant hit me if he is constrained by draft and I am not?
Do yourself a favor and read all of my previous posts in the thread before condeming.

I must have missed it when you encouraged "behaving" erratically. I also missed the posts where others (your "brethren") did so.

Stupid computer!!
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Old 17-09-2012, 19:38   #75
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Interesting take on the situation. As a commercial skipper I need to know and and apply the Colregs. Now my tug displaces 6,000 tonnes, lets say that I have a tanker of about 350,000 tonnes on a steady bearing about 4 points to port. Based on your understanding of the colregs, I should now take action to avoid a close quarters situation. I think not. You did say power boat in your statement.
Instead I will stand on, and if they do not take action, then, and only then will I take action.
Little boats out at sea making up their own rule as they go along can be a real menace.

NO ONE has esposed that. No one.
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