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Old 09-07-2013, 10:56   #691
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
IMO, in small boats with limited directional stability, the HBC method is far superior to the "stanchion sighting" method.

Cheers,

Jim
And according to rule 7 it is the "legal" "regulated" method.

There is is good discussion of rule 7 here - Rule7.html

When teaching I have a couple of HBCs in the cockpit and have a couple of crew taking bearings to determine the risk of collision.

I will show them how to use part of vessel as a quick and dirty backup.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:57   #692
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
What you say is true, but I have found that in any significant seaway the yachts heading changes so frequently that determining what the heading is/was at either the first or the later sighting is difficult.

IMO, in small boats with limited directional stability, the HBC method is far superior to the "stanchion sighting" method.
Of course, but trying to get the novice to even understand how to do this (thinking they certainly won't have a HBC or Binocs) at all would be a HUGE help to get this problem dealt with.

About 450 posts ago a guy named "TonyB" made a comment that was completely flamed by the 'purists' and technically correct crowd.

It was, "When in doubt, steer for the stern of the vessel." It is actually the absolute, correct way to avoid collision. But it is seen as 'breaking the rules'. Nothing could be further from the truth, if you think you are about to be run over, doing something is better than doing more of nothing. At this point, you have decided that the ship is doing nothing do get out of your way. YOU MUST act. (Although I agree with TonyB in concept, it has to be fully explained that you don't constantly steer for the stern of the ship, you steer for the compass bearing when you originally sight the ship. and keep that original bearing.

To make this simpler, if a ship is coming near you, and you aren't sure of what is happening what do you do? Go away! Its not difficult.

Regarding TonyB's concept, you have to see this from my RADAR when it happens. If I have a sailboat off my starboard bow and we are showing a -0- CPA almost immediately when they alter course for my stern, the Relative Motion Line on my RADAR shows instant opening of CPA. That makes me happy, I am sure it makes the SV happy, and I wave at them, they wave at me, and away we go. The most feared action by a SV is the 'nautical squirrel' where they tack one way, the other, gybe, and return to original course. There is NO predicting or helping the situation. The sad thing, is (from my POV) is they have NO idea how this looks both from a professional standpoint, or a navigational standpoint.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:03   #693
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
And according to rule 7 it is the "legal" "regulated" method.
I just looked. I failed to see that HBCs are required equipment? Desired? Maybe. BUT the only equipment mentioned is a Compass and RADAR in rule 7.

It's not what you want, it's what you got. I think thats a song from some where, I forget. But it applies here too.

I will have to do some research. I am not even certain that all uninspected vessels are required to have a compass either. Inspected vessels, YES.
And I don't mean a courtesy inspection by the local clam cops.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:18   #694
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
I just looked. I failed to see that HBCs are required equipment? Desired? Maybe. BUT the only equipment mentioned is a Compass and RADAR in rule 7.

It's not what you want, it's what you got. I think thats a song from some where, I forget. But it applies here too.

I will have to do some research. I am not even certain that all uninspected vessels are required to have a compass either. Inspected vessels, YES.
And I don't mean a courtesy inspection by the local clam cops.
I use quotes on purpose. No they are not required on all vessels. In Canada on pleasure craft above 12 meters - yes.

You can get a compass bearing bearing (specified in rule 7) from either a ship's compass (eyeballing) or an HBC (accurate) or radar, if you have it.

When I teach navigation courses I suggest that students buy a hand bearing compass before they go sailing either. One these will cost you $90 and last a lifetime.



One is foolish not to have one.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:39   #695
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In spite of the many differences between the IRPCAS/COLREGS/inland versus racing rules and how they are applied, sailboat racing does have a benefit in training sailors to adapt to rapidly changing rights and obligations between numerous vessels, yet typically with smaller and less lethal displacement and speed differences than exist between small craft and big ships. Racing does train people to get better at estimating relative speeds and changes in bearings, it also teaches more precise boat control, and it does help train people to be fore-handed in anticipating problems and planning ahead for how to mitigate them.
Of course, some racers, as well as some cruisers, have greater or lesser ability or motivation to learn prudent and capable seamanship.
Racing teaches you nothing about COLREGS or the wisdom and experience around then. If anything racers underestimate situations with large racers , sail too close and leave everything to the last minute.

Dave
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:47   #696
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Racing teaches you nothing about COLREGS or the wisdom and experience around then. If anything racers underestimate situations with large racers , sail too close and leave everything to the last minute.

Dave
If nothing else, racing does teach you to judge crossing situations very accurately.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:50   #697
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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One these will cost you $90 and last a lifetime.
Yikes ! I have already worn one out. I hope its not an omen
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:58   #698
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Racing does teach you to judge crossing situations very accurately.
How so , I race we cross yards , sometimes feet in front or behind vessels , what use is this " experience " when dealing with 40, 000 tons

I ll tell you what it lends itself , idiots racing that sail in front of large merchant ships in the Solent !!

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Old 09-07-2013, 12:08   #699
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

some of you are holding back on writing what you really feel and this thread is losing its' entertainment value, so ................... knock it off

eveytime a "rules" threads keeps going around and around it becomes pretty clear to me .................... someone is about to get run over because dang it the "rules say"
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:11   #700
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
How so , I race we cross yards , sometimes feet in front or behind vessels , what use is this " experience " when dealing with 40, 000 tons
If you can judge a crossing situation to a few feet extending a suitable clearance distance in the less demanding cruising situation is easily done.
Racing skippers get much more practice at these decisions that most cruising sailors, with perhaps those that sail the worlds busy waterways like the Solent a possible exception.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:23   #701
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

[QUOTE=TUNA;1280967]Post # 79

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Since I am the OP, I will point out that you can only make the title just so long.... QUOTE]

It would seem memory fades; I know mine does.

Provided only for the purpose of clarification

I guess I did. I'm surprised by some of what it says, because it *sounds* as if i'm familiar with AIS, but I'm not. And I wouldn't have spelled "speck" "spec," which is short for speifications. So i will be the first to admit that the original post was completely misleading on that point. I must have been referring to something someone else said but didn't make it clear, and I guess I left the k off of speck, but that's what completely threw me, becuase I don't have the faintest idea what a sailboat looks like from five miles away on a freighter's technology.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:37   #702
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
This is negated by taking visual bearings, when on the original sighted heading. as long as repetive bearings are taken when BACK on the original heading this works.




Regarding the bow or stern, it completely depends upon if you are trying to pass either astern or ahead of said large steel wall. If you are trying to pass ahead, then you watch the bow. If you want to assure passage astern, you sight the stern. But the most important thing is to practice this, so you can perfect it when you REALLY need it. Taking time to sight the 'uninvolved end' is a waste of time, and just clouds the issue.

Really, unless you're racing or on some kind of deadline for some other reading, just taking a couple of sightings using your boat as the fixed point is enough to tell you what you need to know. It won't tell you *precisely* where your boat is, or *precisely* where that moving steel wall is, but it will tell you the likelihood of colliding. In addition, it's quick, and if you're sailing by yourself or with a short-handed crew and have other things you have to pay attention to as well, it frees you up. Going to the other extreme, with enough information you could determine the freighter's course and speed, but for me knowing whether or not I'm going to hit it is enough information.

If I were racing, I would want to know the minimum course change I have to make in order to miss the big steel wall but still make the best time possible on the race course. But I don't race, and really all I care about is not hitting that great big freighers. As Pancho says in MAN OF LA MANCHA, "Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it's going to be bad for the pitcher!"

And, I always aim for the stern of any boat when this is an issue, making enough of a turn that my intentions are clear. I certainly wouldn't sail perpindicularly toward the side of a freighter and expect it to give way.
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Old 09-07-2013, 12:52   #703
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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I certainly wouldn't sail perpindicularly toward the side of a freighter and expect it to give way.
An you would be SURPRISED how many do........... speechless. (for once)
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:17   #704
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
just taking a couple of sightings using your boat as the fixed point is enough to tell you what you need to know.
This may work in nice flat water. I would not try it broad reaching in 12 foot seas.
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Old 09-07-2013, 13:58   #705
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Re: Freighters vs. Sailboats

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Yikes ! I have already worn one out. I hope its not an omen
Heh!

I was thinking the same thing.
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