Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-09-2012, 14:32   #46
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I agree with those that say " don't stand on into danger". Hence for small boats the obvious effect is that small vessels should ensure they stay clear of potential collision situations.
The only way to "ensure" you stay clear of potential collision situations is to stay in port.

The better option is to (1) learn the COLREGS, and (2) follow them.

Once again we have a thread where boaters unfamiliar with the rules of the road are urging "common-sense" alternatives to them. The last thing we need here is to dumb down boating. The rules work, especially if you communicate your intentions and/or request the other vessel's intentions.

Advocating a "fear the freighter" mentality is the wrong approach. Yes, we need to respect the speed and lack of maneuverability of freighters, especially when they are constrained by draft. But to advocate such approaches as are being suggested in this threat, such as leaving any channel being used by a ship, is not an enlightened way to go about cruising.
__________________

__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 14:33   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,313
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Rule 2 Paragraph B

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be
had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special
circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which
may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate
danger.

That to me looks like it says you should take the limitations of large commercial craft into consideration when deciding what to do if you would normally be the stand on vessel and depart from the letter of the law as needed.
__________________

__________________
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 14:49   #48
Registered User
 
Khagan1227's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Boat: In the hunt again, unknown
Posts: 1,330
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

If you don't follow the rules and are involved in a collision, guess who is to blame.

Know the Colregs.
Follow the Colregs.

Pretty simple.
Khagan1227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 14:57   #49
Registered User
 
xymotic's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,076
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I think in most of these cases it's just a case of trying to be too cute by half.

I've had a couple of instances in Puget sound and also in the channel off Catalina where I was WAY away from ships. I *KNEW* we were in no danger, and yet I still chose to make a 90 degree turn away from even the smallest hint of a possibility of a fraction of danger.

I also had a guy turn left in front of us and cross the channel in the Columbia river as we were heading downstream. If he'd timed that move a little differently he'd have been a smudge on the side of the hull. (we were in a 68' steel trawler at the time, he was a 30' FG cabin cruiser)

We only got two blasts off the horn before passing that idiot, but we finished all five anyway
__________________
xymotic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 15:16   #50
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,323
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Some time ago I created quite a heated discussion by stating that when it comes to freighters and sailboats...................

I'm not going to read all the rules argument that probably has gone on after the OP.

I don't understand people that play the rules game and seem to throw out their common sense and survival sense while doing so.

The big boat rule always applies just like the big truck rule applies on the road. If you chose to put yourself into a bad spot playing the rules game I hope you take that sense of being "right" to wherever you go once you get run over.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 15:32   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 959
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Law of Gross Tonnage rules. And, as has been stated earlier, willy-nilly manuevering to avoid a collision does often result in danger. My experience is that kind of manuvering is not limited to recreational vessels, it includes large commercial vessels, even American skippers in US waters on American flagged vessels.
__________________
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 16:12   #52
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Many thanks to Dockhead for taking up the "Colregs" side of the debate. I am with ya 100%.

Although having been through this several times there will be no change in the impass. I suppose all those that say, "steer clear, and gross tonnage rules, and most maneuverable loses" are probably not going to cause me any harm. Unless I am the more maneuverable beach cat and they are the less maneuverable keel boat. I suppose then they stand on cuz of their gross tonnage...

Anyhoo - last Saturdays race had two ships and two barges in the channel before it was all over - all a factor in where to sail and the outcome of the race. There were also the usual 8-10 X 30 passenger ferries. If the skippers didnt understand the regs it could have been mayhem. We crossed one ship, received a one horn blast and knew exactly what his intentions were.

So for the steer clear crowd - go ahead and steer clear. For the benefit of us colregs folks just dont call all your stuff "rules" - because once and for all it is not written so.

I guess the one area we might all agree is the avoid collision rule. None of the colreg folks are advocating standing on into a collision. If by my judgement the 300 meter supertanker has not started his turn to give way to me within 2 miles, I might presume he won't because I know at 15 knots he has to start a turn pretty early. However I dont have to start avoiding at 2 miles. I could probably avoid the collision at about 300 meters.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 16:28   #53
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khagan1227 View Post
If you don't follow the rules and are involved in a collision, guess who is to blame.

Know the Colregs.
Follow the Colregs.

Pretty simple.

AND ...

If you "follow the rules" and the result is a collision you could have avoided by departing from "the rules," guess who is to blame.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 16:29   #54
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nevada City. CA
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 3,745
Images: 9
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I remember sailing one day with a friend of mine who was a graduate of the Naval Academy. We were off of San Diego and had taken a starboard tack out into the ocean and were heading to Mission Bay on Port tack. We were on a collision course with a submarine. I looked at it "range closing bearing unchanged." I told my friend to make an immediate turn to starboard of at least 50^. He asked me why we were a sailboat and had ROW. I explained to him that I had a rule called "Tonnage" If the ship can cause more damage to me b/c of tonnage get out of its way. Collision was about 5 minutes off so we discussed it some more when I saw the stern of the sub sink a little and the sub accelerated out of a collision course. For the most part I like to talk to ships and agree on what they and I are going to do. If I can't communicate with them then I'll just get out of their way. Might not be the Col Regs but it works.
__________________
Fair Winds,

Charlie

Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
Joseph Conrad
Charlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 16:30   #55
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Law of Gross Tonnage rules. And, as has been stated earlier, willy-nilly manuevering to avoid a collision does often result in danger. My experience is that kind of manuvering is not limited to recreational vessels, it includes large commercial vessels, even American skippers in US waters on American flagged vessels.

Who here recommended "willy-nilly" maneuvering to avoid a collisoin?

I must have missed that post, so please provide a link, quote it in its entirety, or something.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 16:58   #56
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,048
Images: 1
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
AND ...

If you "follow the rules" and the result is a collision you could have avoided by departing from "the rules," guess who is to blame.
A key to following the rules is these rules

Quote:
Rule 2 - Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

Quote:
(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
Follow ALL of the rules.
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 17:12   #57
Registered User
 
cheoah's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North Carolina, USA
Boat: Moccasins and pony
Posts: 996
Re: Clarification here

Well there's plenty of room for argument that a predictable course from a stand on vessel is helpful. Not always possible though with other boats in the picture. Calling on Channel 13 helps a lot, professional mariners always appreciate, especially if your course is erratic....

I'm all about the AIS. If you sail shipping lanes at night it really dumbs it down, as even a good watchkeeper can miss a ship coming.

Colregs or not, we're dealing with human judgement here, and staying away from big ships is smart money, particularly at night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
That kind of thinking is going to create more problems than it solves. When the stand-on vessel behaves erratically, it can throw a wrench into the whole system. We shouldn't have to be guessing what constitutes "plain common sense" to Tony B and his brethren. The COLREGS are designed to prevent collisions by establishing predictable behaviors in crossing situations.

Other than for Rule Nine, there are no provisions in the COLREGS for smaller boats vs larger boats.

The COLREGS are the rules of the road. If you can't play by the rules, get out of the game.
__________________
cheoah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 17:20   #58
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,913
Images: 1
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
No rescue boat. We pulled along side; destroyed the starboard sidelight, scratched the rub rail and deflated two fenders. We were both moving at 3 knots so that was probably some suction. The evacuee climbed a Jacob's ladder after being fitted with a harness and tether to the ship. The access port was 4.5 meters above the waterline.
I know you early have stated you didn't take any pictures; do you know if the crew (yours or the freighter) perhaps did? It would be great to see.

What an experience! That'll go down as a "I remember when".
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 17:21   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 959
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Who here recommended "willy-nilly" maneuvering to avoid a collisoin?

I must have missed that post, so please provide a link, quote it in its entirety, or something.
I do not believe anyone "recommended" such manuvering. My understanding is the point was to show how haphazard manuvering may increase the risk.

See posts 17 and 40 specifically, and several posts between those posts in general.
__________________
Richard5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2012, 17:21   #60
Registered User
 
Tom Stormcrowe's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Indiana
Boat: 1984 Johnson Boatworks Inland Scow, 20' and a 1975 sailMFG Bandit 19 Pocket Cruiser
Posts: 204
Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I don't much care if I have the right of way when the other vessel is 500 times my size, and moving at 25 knots. I won't defend my ROW to my own death. I'll try tp communicate my intention to give way, if they are standing a radio watch properly, though.
__________________

__________________
"Dum vivimus, vivamus! -- 'While we live, let us live!"-Heinlein (Among others)
My Refit and Travel Blog
Tom Stormcrowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Timeless Elegance Of Multi Mast Sailboats In Photographs GaryMayo Monohull Sailboats 15 23-07-2012 23:30
Any Info About Northern Sailboats ? Snore Monohull Sailboats 10 27-03-2012 14:24
Easterly Sailboats easterly38 Monohull Sailboats 0 11-12-2011 14:02
Survey of Production Sailboats Under $50K BajaSurvey Commercial Posts 0 05-12-2011 17:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.