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Old 25-11-2012, 22:44   #571
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I am quite surprised that there are still sailors around who think that sail prevails.

Forget about it in the mainports of Europe. Or main channels/waterways.

On high sea? What's the use? Plenty room to avoid crossing pathways.

Holland, Germany, UK, France - commercial traffic goes first. Everywhere.
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Old 26-11-2012, 09:21   #572
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

It's just never a good idea to pull out in front of something bigger, and or faster than you, land or sea. Be safe.
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Old 26-11-2012, 15:12   #573
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dulls View Post
Might is right. Cant be bothered to read Col regs at the moment but my understanding is that power gives way to sail unless the power vessel is displaying the shapes or lights saying otherwise. Also some harbour by laws operate in conjunction with the col regs to colour the debate.

So
Might is Right
Show your intentions early early early
Might is Right
Give the Col regs a try out.
Get AIS
Your comment is EXACTLY why there is an issue that has been rattling on for 39 pages and over 500 posts. A SV does NOT always have the right of way. There is a destinct pecking order, and in some cases a SV does NOT have the right of way regardless. It is THIS exact opinion (devoid of facts and documentation) that hurtles the WAFI's in the way of the MAFIs and causes great angst and frustration among us all.

And the absolute worst thing is, when you discuss this with a couple dozen friends at the docks before you cast off, you have done THEM a disservice by 'mis'informing them of the 'rules' as you see them. This is exactly the issue.
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Old 26-11-2012, 15:29   #574
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dulls View Post
Might is right. Cant be bothered to read Col regs at the moment but my understanding is that power gives way to sail unless the power vessel is displaying the shapes or lights saying otherwise.
Interesting to note that the people most convinced of their own infallibility on this issue are those who can't be bothered to read the COLREGS.
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Old 26-11-2012, 15:44   #575
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

To add on to Bash and Dockhead's #11 - NO way, NO how, is there any concept or convoluted idea in the world of marine vessels of "Right of Way."

To be frank and nasty, anybody uttering those words - "right of way" - has no place in a boat or on the waterways and oceans. Boats are not automobiles and likewise marine vessel regulations are not patterned on automobile rules of the road.

COLREGS are not difficult to understand if you first trash all the old ideas you have of automobile traffic rules/laws. It all boils down to simply the vessel with the least ability to maneuver in a given place and circumstance is the "stand-on" vessel and the other vessel should "give way." As places and circumstances change the vessel that will be the "stand on" vessel will change. And of course, the final factor is you are required to do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision.
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Old 26-11-2012, 15:56   #576
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
We've had this discussion before, and I'm not sure that there is much to be gained from rehashing it. But since these threads are read by thousands of people, I think it's important that true information is injected in them somewhere.

First of all, a lot of nonsense can be avoided by simply reading the Colregs -- they are fairly clear and you don't have to be a lawyer to understand them. Here is just one place to find them: COLREGS - Boating Safety

A couple of further comments:

1. There is no such thing as "right of way" in the Colregs. The concept of "standing on" and "giving way" are somewhat different, and the difference is important. It is misleading to talk about "right of way", as if we were driving cars. The rules at sea are different from the rules on the road.

2. There is no such concept as a "more manueverable" and "less maneuverable" vessel in the Colregs. There are specifically defined situations where other vessels are supposed to keep clear of a vessel which is impaired in its ability to manuever and is giving the proper signals to indicate this. There are other rules that require us to keep out of the way of a vessel which is constrained by draft and navigating in a narrow channel, if we are not similarly constrained. But there is no rule that "a less manueverable vessel has the right of way" -- this is patently false. On the contrary, under the Colregs, less manueverable vessels are obligated to give way to more maneuverable vessels in a lot of different situations.

3. What is true, however, is that there is certainly a general principle of good seamanship and common sense, and doing whatever is required under the circumstances to avoid a collision, even if it means violating one of the other rules after a reasonable attempt has been made to follow it. And this certainly does require small pleasure boats to take early action to avoid getting into close quarters situations with large commercial vessels, where this is reasonably possible. It also means keeping in mind and taking account for the fact that a large commercial vessel might not see you. But this principle does not mean that the proper way to deal with encounters with large commercial vessels is to willy-nilly steer any which way in whatever direction seems away from them, throwing the Colregs overboard. This is, on the contrary, poor seamanship, contrary to all of the principles of the Colregs, and dangerous.

So to sum all this up -- yes, of course, small pleasure vessels should do everything reasonable to avoid encounters with large commercial vessels. In many places and circumstances, you can navigate in water too shallow for them and entirely avoid the problem in the first place, or heave to and wait for them to get by, or simply change course before there is any encounter. It is good seamanship and simple common sense to use the fact of your greater manueverability and shallower draft to stay out of their way.

However, sometimes it does happen that you cannot avoid a close quarters situation with a large commercial vessel. In such cases, you had damned well better understand what you are supposed to do -- are you the stand on vessel? Or the give way vessel? Are you supposed to turn to starboard? Are you supposed to hold your course and speed? Is he navigating in a narrow channel? Are you under sail? Does he see you? Is he showing signals of being impaired in manueverability? Do you know those signals? Is he towing something? You must know all of these things in order to deal safely with an encounter with a large commercial vessel.
Clear and concise. Well said. I have tried (unsuccessfully, I might add) to get the readers of this forum to get the term "right of way" out of their thinking. Maybe they will heed your post and live a bit longer, or at least not not have to eat so many Rolaids each time they go out. Nobody has the "right of way", period.
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Old 26-11-2012, 15:58   #577
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
To add on to Bash and Dockhead's #11 - NO way, NO how, is there any concept or convoluted idea in the world of marine vessels of "Right of Way."

To be frank and nasty, anybody uttering those words - "right of way" - has no place in a boat or on the waterways and oceans. Boats are not automobiles and likewise marine vessel regulations are not patterned on automobile rules of the road.

COLREGS are not difficult to understand if you first trash all the old ideas you have of automobile traffic rules/laws. It all boils down to simply the vessel with the least ability to maneuver in a given place and circumstance is the "stand-on" vessel and the other vessel should "give way." As places and circumstances change the vessel that will be the "stand on" vessel will change. And of course, the final factor is you are required to do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision.
That is about as a succinct and cogent explanation of COLREGS I've seen
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Old 26-11-2012, 16:25   #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG
I am quite surprised that there are still sailors around who think that sail prevails.

Forget about it in the mainports of Europe. Or main channels/waterways.

On high sea? What's the use? Plenty room to avoid crossing pathways.

Holland, Germany, UK, France - commercial traffic goes first. Everywhere.
This simply isn't true. Outside TSSs , roundabouts and areas under TSS control the COLREGS apply and that includes most of European coastal waters including large areas of the English channel, outside the TSSs. The system in Europe is the same as elsewhere.

Dave
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Old 26-11-2012, 16:41   #579
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

A picture of a yacht giving way to a ship
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Old 26-11-2012, 16:45   #580
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacG View Post
I am quite surprised that there are still sailors around who think that sail prevails.

Forget about it in the mainports of Europe. Or main channels/waterways.

On high sea? What's the use? Plenty room to avoid crossing pathways.

Holland, Germany, UK, France - commercial traffic goes first. Everywhere.
I would have to disagree.

I recently sailed form the Azores to Lisbon and later south to the Algarve coast then straight across the approaches to Gibraltar. Watching on my AIS transceiver (Class B), most of the commercial traffic adjusted their course early to ensure a CPA around 2 miles. Only once, did I have to take action to avoid a close quarters situation.

COLREGs do apply!
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Old 26-11-2012, 16:54   #581
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dulls View Post
A picture of a yacht giving way to a ship

I thought it was a photo of a ship having its way with a yacht....?

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Old 26-11-2012, 17:20   #582
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Your comment is EXACTLY why there is an issue that has been rattling on for 39 pages and over 500 posts. A SV does NOT always have the right of way. There is a destinct pecking order, and in some cases a SV does NOT have the right of way regardless. It is THIS exact opinion (devoid of facts and documentation) that hurtles the WAFI's in the way of the MAFIs and causes great angst and frustration among us all.

And the absolute worst thing is, when you discuss this with a couple dozen friends at the docks before you cast off, you have done THEM a disservice by 'mis'informing them of the 'rules' as you see them. This is exactly the issue.
I was being sarcastic. "Might is right" which i listed twice for emphasis is another way of saying use good seamanship and common sense. Ie try and keep clear of big steel things.
I also talked about harbor bylaws which do apply along with the col regs that may change the way the col regs apply. But to be honest capta has captured the essence of the rules very well. I think a close read of what i was saying supports your point of view to a degree. Displaying the correct signals etc is not waived after a dock discussion with your mates etc...And the col reg rules always apply. In what way they apply at your location in regard to bylaws etc are for you to work out
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Old 26-11-2012, 17:32   #583
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Interesting to note that the people most convinced of their own infallibility on this issue are those who can't be bothered to read the COLREGS.
Please read in the light that at my computer i didnt have col regs available to read(could have looked them up on computer i suppose) but i must understand that "might is right" means something different to you? A common expression in england and just means that regardless of col regs etc a big ship and a small yacht in collision means "might is right" As to infallibility i expect to be dead within 30 years regardless of my coll reg application. We could just post the col reg in this thread and that is the end of the matter but it is a bit of fun to read all the posts like the bad ones(mine) and the good ones.
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Old 26-11-2012, 17:47   #584
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Um ... almost nobody but armchair sailors adhere to the COLREGS. These people are not unsafe, just practical. (Hmmm...where did I store that black ball and inverted cone....)
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Old 26-11-2012, 17:57   #585
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by EzzyD View Post
I thought it was a photo of a ship having its way with a yacht....?

CPA under 10mm
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