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Old 01-10-2012, 09:04   #541
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
You assume that. In this picture in inland waters is is not only very likely but happens often to meet ships this close. Where there is NO other way out.
Indeed. Especially if you are both navigating in a narrow channel with water too shallow for either of you to depart the channel.

But I also agree with Admiral Jeffrey that it's not actually rocket science -- it's a bit like driving on a highway -- just keep to the right and pass red to red. Turn starboard if it looks like you're meeting head-on.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:06   #542
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Please pardon my artwork. In order to re direct the conversation back to where it should be.

If you saw either ship from this view at ANY aspect while at sea would you consider it a successful meeting?

Never mind in a narrow channel.

I believe this speaks to Cap Jeffry and TonyBs earlier posts about NOT being there.

But, the fundamental thought, you have been on a 4 day tack, on the same course. This ship has steadily come up behind you. are you 'free and clear?
Is a 20 meter separation acceptable? what do you do, and when should you (have) done it?
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:09   #543
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Very true Cappy. Have done 2 recent deliveries (last 2 months) around Cape Flattery in to Strait of Juan de Fuca, Rosario Strait and the Sound. Lots of heavy metal traffic. I've been around Flattery 6 times now. North and South. Inland is a completely different situation. Perhaps I should have clarified that from the beginning. I am mainly an ocean crossing and coastal skipper from Mexico to Flattery and of course Hawaii and the South Pacific. Getting ready for two deliveries in November from LA to Zihua and then San Diego to Panama. Next week it's LA to Brookings, Oregon. Cheers, Jeffry
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:13   #544
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Here's a picture - you're fine on his bow (about 12 degrees). He's on your starboard side - might be your bow, beam, or quarter. Either way, his bearing is steady (static) so you are on a collision course. It's not a difficult question - will you really point at his stern?
The good news is that he does not appear to be doing 20 knots . Not sure what is on his Starboard quarter (a bouy? a boat?) but I doubt he has sailed 5 miles straight on his current course (given that there is land aft of him )......therefore I would like to think I would have spotted him before now and anticipated the change to his current course, even if not 100% certain what it would be.

If he was on my Starboard beam I would be wondering how he got that close without me noticing!, because if I had then sure as sh#t I would not be sailing accross his bow! and aiming for his stern would certainly be closer to my intended direction - from wayyyy off!

If he was on my Starboard bow I would have a problem . Would I aim for his Stern? Well, I would not be aiming for his bow! If I had time (and could) then I would reverse course (trading angle for closing distance) - otherwise I would hope (I think by then hoping would be removed from the toolbox ) that I didn't bounce down his Port side .....whilst aiming aft of his stern .

If he was on my starboard quarter, then not such a biggie, if not doing 20 knots (albeit a bit too close for my comfort) as I would simply bear away - at 90 degrees if needed.

Ideally that close I would want to be sure I knew what he was doing (and where he was going - being in a fairway / river would be nice!) and have him on my port bow. a bit further to port would be nice . Under sail my comfort level would also depend on wind direction.

I wonder if I would have hit him? .
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:24   #545
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Nice 'shopping'!! Open ocean I am just not letting that situation happen of taking a heavy metal ship's bow that close. I would have clearly altered my course long before this encounter OK. Two weeks ago I was motoring, 7 kts, down a narrow channel from Port Townsend to Seattle and saw a big Sub coming up my stern. They were maybe 5 miles behind, coming fast. (so were the RIB's). I atered my course to stbd and reduced speed to 2 kts as I would run out of water on my stbd. Not 2 minutes after I altered course two Navy RIB's flew to my position, thanked me and directed me to continue on my current course until the Sub was well down track.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:38   #546
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Please pardon my artwork. In order to re direct the conversation back to where it should be.

If you saw either ship from this view at ANY aspect while at sea would you consider it a successful meeting?

Never mind in a narrow channel.

I believe this speaks to Cap Jeffry and TonyBs earlier posts about NOT being there.

But, the fundamental thought, you have been on a 4 day tack, on the same course. This ship has steadily come up behind you. are you 'free and clear?
Is a 20 meter separation acceptable? what do you do, and when should you (have) done it?
Hell, no, if you are seeing one of the above pictures, you (the WAFI) were asleep at the switch and must have had your radar/AIS alarm turned off. Way too flipping close for safety. It looks like just a cable or two.

Let's be clear that we are talking about an overtaking situation, not a head-on meeting.

The ship should long ago have steered to avoid you, but abjectly failed to do so, therefore now you (the WAFI) are obligated to maneuver. Actually, to be precise, you (the WAFI) were obligated to maneuver about two miles ago, and you screwed the pooch.

I guess it's a trick question, the answer to which I should know but don't, but I'm guessing that I (the WAFI) need to:

1. Get the motor on and full revs, let the sails flog if necessary (i.e. blow the sheets)
2. Five blasts
3. Top picture, hard turn to port and open up the distance between me and his projected path, i.e., get the hell out of his way.
4. Bottom picture, hard turn to starboard and open up etc.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:45   #547
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I have been sailing in and around SoCal since 1964. Long Beach California gets tremendous traffic in and out of Angels Gate. We have 20 miles to cross the channel to Catalina Island and the north and south bound seperation scheme. Sometimes I feel like a gopher dodging the splat of the guy holding a garden tool, but avoid these guys I will, each and every time. They aren't making 25 kts but a good 15-18. I have a pretty good eye for speed and distance through my offshore racing, and have crossed the bow of tankers, not within 3 miles, because of racing.
I just won't do it when I am cruising or delivering a boat. I make course/speed adjustmens to increase CPA and TCPA. Very easy with target tracking on your radar or AIS. AIS is amazing!! Even if it's only on the Horizon VHF screen. Very satisfactory. Cheers
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:58   #548
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Of course it is not a trick question. But there is quite a difference in opinion here.

Trying to engage some other lurkers here who may be reading to share the thought train.

How about the comment on telling if (even at this late time) whether you are mincemeat or not? Hey, 20 meters is better than a collision. Although I am certainly not endorsing close encounters of the worst kind.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:00   #549
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Do you break the rules, and be safe, or follow the rules and have to extricate yourself from a deeper hole! How's that for an over simplified statement?
Sounds like a false dichotomy to me.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:07   #550
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Of course it is not a trick question. But there is quite a difference in opinion here.

Trying to engage some other lurkers here who may be reading to share the thought train.

How about the comment on telling if (even at this late time) whether you are mincemeat or not? Hey, 20 meters is better than a collision. Although I am certainly not endorsing close encounters of the worst kind.
It's hard to judge the distance, but guessing from the aspect, no, you're not mincemeat. 20 meters ( 1/10 of a cable!) is probably enough clearance to live to tell the tale, but it is extremely shameful to have ended up with such a close call. It is close enough to be really, really dangerous -- in case the ship's helmsman see you, panics, and puts the helm over the wrong way, for example, you ARE mincemeat before anyone can do anything about it.

That's why I would urgently make whatever distance I could away from his path.

With that aspect at 1 - 2 cables, you will probably pass at more than 20 meters if you get the helm over at the moment of the photograph. 15 knots is 2.5 cables per minute, so you've got what -- 20 to 40 seconds before impact? At 6 knots, you are making one cable per minute, half a cable in 30 seconds. Half a cable is 100 meters -- much better. Still f*cked up, but better. I would go for that -- do my best to put that distance between me and his path.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:14   #551
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Please pardon my artwork. In order to re direct the conversation back to where it should be.

If you saw either ship from this view at ANY aspect while at sea would you consider it a successful meeting?

Never mind in a narrow channel.

I believe this speaks to Cap Jeffry and TonyBs earlier posts about NOT being there.

But, the fundamental thought, you have been on a 4 day tack, on the same course. This ship has steadily come up behind you. are you 'free and clear?
Is a 20 meter separation acceptable? what do you do, and when should you (have) done it?

At this distance apart, it is NOT a successful meeting. And, 20 meters is way too close, not even near acceptable, especially at sea, crap happens at the most inopportune moments, either vessel can suffer a break down of engine or steering gear.
Now if this ship has crept up behind me
1) They have failed to keep a proper lookout and failed to comply with Rule 13

2) The boat being overtaken has failed to take action as the stand on vessel, and now finds herself "in-extremis" , and will have to take whatever action they seem fit to avoid collision. Depending on what quarter they were on, I'd be altering course to open the bearing the quickest way.

In any event, on any vessel, deep sea, a sight of this vessel this close would really upset my day, and would be a complete ruin of a day for the watchkeeper


Although there is no written rule about this, deep sea, it was always considered considerate that when you were overtaking another ship, you passed on their port side, leaves their stbd side open in the event they find themselves in another situation. Today, with ARPA and AIS etc, the overtaking vessel should be able to fully assess the whole situation before deciding on what side to take.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:27   #552
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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With that aspect at 1 - 2 cables, you will probably pass at more than 20 meters if you get the helm over at the moment of the photograph. 15 knots is 2.5 cables per minute, so you've got what -- 20 to 40 seconds before impact? At 6 knots, you are making one cable per minute, half a cable in 30 seconds. Half a cable is 100 meters -- much better. Still f*cked up, but better. I would go for that -- do my best to put that distance between me and his path.

Dockhead, if you look at the video I linked to here

Re: Colregs Puzzle

I would guess that the skipper of the Mersey Ferry looked to starboard and saw a very similar aspect of the tanker coming up on him. In this case, the ferry turned away from the bow of the tanker, it was estimated by radar that they passed about 40 meters, but with a reported 450 passengers on the ferry even 40 meters is to close. The distance would have been less, but the tanker went full astern and helm to stbd. Probably a bit of a worry for the punters on the Pier Head seeing a chemical tanker heading their way


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Old 01-10-2012, 10:34   #553
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Dockhead, if you look at the video I linked to here

Re: Colregs Puzzle

I would guess that the skipper of the Mersey Ferry looked to starboard and saw a very similar aspect of the tanker coming up on him. In this case, the ferry turned away from the bow of the tanker, it was estimated by radar that they passed about 40 meters, but with a reported 450 passengers on the ferry even 40 meters is to close. The distance would have been less, but the tanker went full astern and helm to stbd. Probably a bit of a worry for the punters on the Pier Head seeing a chemical tanker heading their way

Well, it's what in the army they call a cluster f*c* -- abject failure to keep a watch and take appropriate action by the overtaking tanker, and abject failure by the ferry to keep a watch and take appropriate action, when the tanker got to less than a mile or two and was evidently not taking action. Total cluster f*c*. 40 meters is a ridiculous distance -- unacceptable -- and hundreds of passengers involved! Both officers on watch should be keelhauled.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:04   #554
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Sounds like a false dichotomy to me.
In some circumstances that would be correct. But, when the stand on vessel has waited until too long to avoid that is what it becomes.

This seems to be the issue. If you (as the stand on vessel) wait past actual extremis you have bound yourself to break the rules to avoid. Even broke the rules to get to this point. Sort of like a double entender. No matter how you look at it, when you are inaccurate, incompetent, or unable to follow the rules you are part of the problem.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:20   #555
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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In some circumstances that would be correct. But, when the stand on vessel has waited until too long to avoid that is what it becomes.

This seems to be the issue. If you (as the stand on vessel) wait past actual extremis you have bound yourself to break the rules to avoid. Even broke the rules to get to this point. Sort of like a double entender. No matter how you look at it, when you are inaccurate, incompetent, or unable to follow the rules you are part of the problem.
Indeed!

Another proof that being the stand on vessel is nothing like having right of way. If you look over your shoulder and see a view like the photos above, you screwed the pooch! The fact that the ship's bridge also screwed up is of precisely zero significance! You have no right to stand on and get run down! You should have been maneuvering long ago -- your obligation to do so arose a couple of miles previously!
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