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Old 30-09-2012, 21:18   #526
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Captain Jeffry View Post
Serious?? It means alter your course to take his stern.

Wet birds don't fly at night ~
Serious - if you are fine on his bow, you suggest turning and pointing at him???
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Old 30-09-2012, 21:32   #527
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Lodesman. Why don't I just take your stern on this one and not try to explain a basic principle of mine, namely take the ships stern when in question.

Enjoy~
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:04   #528
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Flies in the face of what you were told by your 10 merchent mariner friends. Depending on the situation they'll normally make their alteration from between 5 to 3 miles out, but in some instances may need to come in closer. If he hasn't made the move by 2 miles, then you can probably assume that he is not taking action as he should. You should certainly be capable of detecting a risk of collision before a range of two miles.
Well, not necessarily. What they told me was kind of contradictory -- follow the bloody Colregs, but then they were also saying stay out of the bloody way.

That statement about avoiding as soon as you detect -- because you're already in the next phase of the Colregs dance -- because they will have detected you far before you do -- kind of harmonizes these two conflicting points.

It's maybe just a rationalization of giving way early, but so far the most logical one I have heard.

I'm not saying I'm going to do it that way -- I think my procedure of going over to giving way at two miles (in open water) is probably ok.

I want AIS more than ever now.


And I will be practicing what I preach -- my next Channel crossing is on Friday! For me this is not any kind of armchair discussion at all! I will be crossing from Needles to Cherbourg -- the easiest Channel crossing, 85 miles from Hamble and 60 miles from Needles -- and probably at night, which I also prefer, because I can more easily understand the ships' aspect by ranging their two steaming lights.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:34   #529
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Captain Jeffry View Post
Lodesman. Why don't I just take your stern on this one and not try to explain a basic principle of mine, namely take the ships stern when in question.

Enjoy~
Here's a picture - you're fine on his bow (about 12 degrees). He's on your starboard side - might be your bow, beam, or quarter. Either way, his bearing is steady (static) so you are on a collision course. It's not a difficult question - will you really point at his stern?
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:50   #530
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Well, not necessarily. What they told me was kind of contradictory -- follow the bloody Colregs, but then they were also saying stay out of the bloody way.

That statement about avoiding as soon as you detect -- because you're already in the next phase of the Colregs dance -- because they will have detected you far before you do -- kind of harmonizes these two conflicting points.



I'm not saying I'm going to do it that way -- I think my procedure of going over to giving way at two miles (in open water) is probably ok.

I want AIS more than ever now.
If you take action at 10 miles like Donradcliffe, that's before the colregs begin to apply and perhaps might be what they mean by staying out of the way (Cockcroft's stage 1). If you are within 2 - 8 miles from the other vessel, then colregs apply and you should stand-on, except as required by Rule 9, 10, 18 (stage 2)

At 2 miles (open ocean) then I completely agree with you - time to take your own avoiding action (stage 3).

I'll be AIS shopping at the boat show next week.

Have a good (and safe) trip.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:55   #531
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Here's a picture - you're fine on his bow (about 12 degrees). He's on your starboard side - might be your bow, beam, or quarter. Either way, his bearing is steady (static) so you are on a collision course. It's not a difficult question - will you really point at his stern?
Helm hard over to starboard; max revs if under motor. He should be doing the same. Nightmare.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:04   #532
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Here's a picture - you're fine on his bow (about 12 degrees). He's on your starboard side - might be your bow, beam, or quarter. Either way, his bearing is steady (static) so you are on a collision course. It's not a difficult question - will you really point at his stern?
Great Pic. The simple answer is. Yes. Compared to pointing at his bow. This is a relative description. Do you point at his bow, and get closer, or point at the stern to stop the closure. If I see a SV alter, in a big way away from collision, then slowly circle back towards my stern I know two things. 1. They have correctly assessed that there was a risk of collision, and altered course;
2. (ala TonyBs earlier post) they are swinging towards my stern, so as to go close astern trying to minimize any extra distance needed to sail to afford safe clearance.

From my POV, using my relative trails, I know almost instantly if he has altered away from the bow. I can see it directly in his trail, opening moving down my side, as opposed to staying closed. Visually, I would notice the change as he started moving through my windows towards the side, as opposed to staying put.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:23   #533
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

There are several terms a new deckhand must learn when working aboard ships. As they advance, they become an Able Bodied Seaman. Part of this rating is to know how to steer. There are about 25 common (meaning around the world) phrases which must be known to serve at the wheel. Not that a seaman is making navigation decisions, but a seaman is at the wheel moving the rudder at either the Master or Mates command.

One of the phrases which is appropriate to this particular photo is: (and I am making up the course, since we don't know the headings) Steer for the second white house to the right of the ship, AND NOTHING TO THE LEFT. Of course, if you were on a ship you would be given a compass course, but in this instance, you see other things to steer on.

So using this example, you would be 'steering at the stern', as opposed to the bow.

On the opposite heading (with the ship) you would have to steer on a parallel course, but NOTHING TO THE RIGHT. So you don't start steering under the bow of the ship. You have NO idea how many yachts do that! It is like they have NO clue to look around them and even think: Gee, should I even BE here? I am amazed.

Maybe this is why this topic is so difficult to get across? Different acceptances of steering philosophies and steering experience!
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:46   #534
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Here's a picture - you're fine on his bow (about 12 degrees). He's on your starboard side - might be your bow, beam, or quarter. Either way, his bearing is steady (static) so you are on a collision course. It's not a difficult question - will you really point at his stern?
He looks close, I would be doing a 180 (depending on point of sail and/or motor) until it became clear that the relative bearing was opening.

Would I turn to stbd or port. Probably depends whether he was initially on my bow or quarter.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:55   #535
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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On the opposite heading (with the ship) you would have to steer on a parallel course, but NOTHING TO THE RIGHT. So you don't start steering under the bow of the ship. You have NO idea how many yachts do that! It is like they have NO clue to look around them and even think: Gee, should I even BE here? I am amazed.
I don't understand -- are you talking about the case where you are on a similar course to that of the ship (he is overtaking you), rather than on a roughly reciprocal course (meeting head-on)? Or did you mean "NOTHING TO THE LEFT"?

If you're meeting head on, then you are required to steer hard to starboard as he will be doing the same thing, not so? From the photograph you can see that you are located to starboard of his path (from your point of view), so this is a no-brainer -- you will pass red to red as required.

It's harder if you find yourself that close and you are to the port (from your point of view) of his projected path. Then you have the hard choice of steering to starboard to pass ahead of him or steer to port and pass green-to-green contrary to the rules. You must not do the former unless you are really sure you can pass ahead safely, and you must not do the latter unless you agree with him by VHF (because without prior agreement, he should be turning to starboard, and will likely cut you off and crash into you), and you should be strung up from the boom and flogged for getting yourself into that awful position in the first place -- a true WAFI cock-up.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:40   #536
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I remember many years ago coming into Southampton on a minesweeper just in time to pluck survivors out of the water. Their sailboat skipper had chosen to play chicken with an oil tanker running into Fawley refinery. Their boat was matchsticks!! Best advice and practice is simply to keep out of the way!! Best tool to help with this is AIS. On an overnight passage about 20 miles off of Savannah, we had a cluster of about 15+ large freighters within a a 10 mile window. AIS really helped us keep out of the way!!
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:41   #537
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I was referring to the opposite of the previous example of meeting. On the same heading WITH the ship.

My first descruption was steering TOWARDS the ship (thus the references of the houses on the bank ahead.) The second was running parallel with the ship.

Even at this point collision is not imminent. By my estimation there is going to be approximately 20 meters between if you simply went all stop, or went parallel.

But, I know what will happen. The SV will figure that they have the right of way, and just go on about their business, calling buddies ahead, arranging a slip or mooring for the night, or letting the kid take the wheel to go down below to make lunch. OOOh that's bad. Then..... WHY THE HELL IS THAT BIG SHIP BLOWING HIS HORN SO MUCH?
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:46   #538
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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He looks close, I would be doing a 180 (depending on point of sail and/or motor) until it became clear that the relative bearing was opening.

Would I turn to stbd or port. Probably depends whether he was initially on my bow or quarter.
This is the crux of this whole thread. There is NO need to run willy nilly. If the ship is going to pass you by, you need do nothing. BUT, the successful determination seems to be the problem.


Interesting post. From my experience, I can tell at this distance almost IMMEDIATELY (within 10 or 20 seconds) if he is closing, opening, or staying the same. How?

Three things come to the fore. The sides of the ship for a visual range. (the front edge and the back edge.) the fore mast compared to the after mast, and last but certainly not least, the nav lights at night. But especially the flat sides of the ship. You can tell if the flat is getting visually larger (opening), smaller (closing Risk exists) or staying the same (Risk definitely exists)
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:47   #539
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Re your picture: I am never in that position where I can't see his stern. I have made all the necessary changes in my course and speed well before that proximity encounter.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:55   #540
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Re your picture: I am never in that position where I can't see his stern. I have made all the necessary changes in my course and speed well before that proximity encounter.
You assume that. In this picture in inland waters is is not only very likely but happens often to meet ships this close. Where there is NO other way out.
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