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Old 29-09-2012, 16:23   #496
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Originally Posted by cappy208
For me it is a question of not so much if 'THEY' are actually following the rules, but knowing 'IF' they are following the rules. This is a larger issue than can be admitted I believe. By and large, I do believe the problem lies NOT from those reading this board, but those who are NOT! How do you fix that?

By my count, there seems to be a lack of discussion about when, how to decide extremis. It is this point that is being ignored by WAFI's and not understood.

In order to follow the rules one must know how to interpret the outside world. This seems to be a difficult task. Some want to change the Colregs. Some want to enforce the Colregs already on the books. From my limited reading skills it would appear that the concept of a Power Driven Vessel vs a Sailing vessel is already covered by the Regs.

How does one (or a whole body) regulate the diverse amount of knowledge and experience (Or account for the the LACK of knowledge and the INexperience.)

Several posters make note of the high speed of the vessels involved should warrant the give way vessel to slow down. I can address that directly. I am almost the same speed on my lovely 500' tug and barge. I make around 10 knots. Most SVs do around 9 when really moving along. I have had numerous close calls, just as described here. It is NOT the 'high speed vessels that are causing this issue. It is the inability to judge risk of collision!Or conversely, the inability to judge that definitely there is NO existing risk.

This reminds me of the sign posted over the time clock in the office.
"Piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!"

If a WAFI cannot judge what is or is not a collision course or what is or is not a risk of collision, I would say that WAFI should NOT be aboard a vessel in those conditions.

At some time a WAFI has to take control of the situation and stay safe. I see some excellent sailors out there. I also see WAFI's. Until I see proof, I assume you to be a WAFI. You never hear from other sailors about NON incidents do you?
I do not accept your basic idea that most WAFIs do appreciate " extremis". What would you suggest 5 miles out 3 miles out 1 mile out what several merchantmen here have said they don't change course at all. Some have quite close CPA s . Give us some hints there.

Dave
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Old 29-09-2012, 16:26   #497
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Originally Posted by nigel1

Dave, I cannot disagree with you view if that is the situations you have encountered. I assume that you sail the UK south coast which has far more traffic than the area I sail (Irish Sea).
At work, we can usually detect yachts at about 8 miles radar range (providing the yacht has bothered to fit a decent reflector), and I require my OOW's to plot all targets, and if the CPA is less than 1 mile, to take avoiding action (with respect to a sailing vessel), and in open waters, this will be about 4 to 5 miles distance.
Obviously, you are encountering vessels which don't take this approach.
Have you considered reporting the offending vessels. I assume that you are aware of the CHIRP program which encourages reporting of unsafe acts at sea.
Reading many of their reports, the organisers do take action in that they will bring to the attention of the ship operator a situation that has been reported, and ask for a response from the vessel concerned.
At the very least, it might make the operator tighten up watch keeping.
I ve sailed the Irish Sea several times. In general it's not that concentrated a shipping area. I've done the channel many times. Most of my delivery sailing apart from transatlantics has been European Atlantic coast as far down as the Verdes and lots of med work. I stand my ground and say the majority don't change course. What has made a huge difference is an ais transponder, now I find they change course more often, which only backs up my point.

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Old 29-09-2012, 17:34   #498
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I do not accept your basic idea that most WAFIs do appreciate " extremis". What would you suggest 5 miles out 3 miles out 1 mile out what several merchantmen here have said they don't change course at all. Some have quite close CPA s . Give us some hints there.

Dave
What is an acceptable CPA? Personally I am comfortable with being close enough to wave HI at someone. (As long as they have been holding course, and behaving in a responsible way) But other times, in inclement weather I will keep to a HALF mile. If there is other ship traffic I may ignore the little bump, to make sure I don't have a BIG thud. Wrong? No. I have to keep an eye on the big pcture. Just because you only see me, does not mean I only see you. BUT, and this is a HUGE but, I freely admit there are times I have been surprised by a sailboat less than a mile away in a heavy sea. No target, no lights, no nothing. Just pops up, dim light, or maybe a flashlight in the cockpit. One time, I recall wondering what the dim red light was. It turned out to be the red LED illumination on the instrument console. How close was I? There is NO magic number I use. It depends upon relative courses. Speed. Other traffic.

BUT. I know, this is where we have a difference in opinion. If I have determined that I am OK with a CPA and YOU aren't who is to say I am wrong? If you have a problem, then alter course. If you are confused call on 16 or 13 to straighten it out. Blast me with your million candlepower light. Let me SEE you. In the day chip me with a signal mirror. You didn't like my comments about running lights before. You definitely wont like them now. Last night I came up on watch in a 1 mile wide river. Channel about 1200' wide. I am in the deepest part of the channel. The Mate was looking at a sailboat under power off the starboard bow abt 2 pts. SV was just on edge of channel. Lights: White half way up mast, and a red showing. I asked the Mate how long he had the red. His reply was: he just turned into us. I turned on our spotlight and shined it directly on the bow of the barge about 470' in front of me and kept it there. It seemed like forever, but the SV turned back parallel to the channel (and us) showed green again and continued on his way. Then, he turned on his tri color on the masthead. He confirmed to me that 1. He doesn't know which running lights mean what. and 2. He doesn't know his own proper lights.

Merchant ship lights are visible at a minimum of 2 miles, often more like 3. with the white Mastheadlights being visible at 5 or more miles. If you can't tell a Merchies direction shame on you! Learn how to use 'range lights.' The masthead lights on ships for perfect range lights to compare to, to see if you are closing (getting closer to the bow) or opening (getting further from the bow.)

What do i want? How about just a miss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BASH
It's often a matter of perception. On the bridge of the freighter they've determined that the CPA of the sailboat is .5nm, and therefore no action is required. Meanwhile, the sailboat owner is convinced that the behemoth is aiming directly at him even though the CPA also shows as .5nm on the sailboat's radar.
The concept of knowing whether a vessel is going to hit you is pretty simple. Yet it eludes some. Why? You have already posted the why. Bash's post is pretty clear about the issue of when a sailboat IS seen and being taken into consideration. I can't address when ships ignore and play chicken. I don't like the thought, and don't condone it.

But Bash makes an excellent point. Slowsailors post about bringing head to course to take relative bearings is good too. But NOONE is commenting on it. Here that is again. (Why is it that I am the only one who is seeing this?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLOWSAILOR45
A note on using a Non-Stabilized RADAR display (in "heads-up" mode) to determine risk of collision or CPA. If your display is away from the wheel, and you have two people, one on helm, and one on RADAR, you can set your EBL while at a specific compass heading.
"Honey when you are steady on 270 yell "MARK!"." and then repeat the process 3 and/or 6 minutes later, and so on as long as the average or aggregate heading is relatively steady, this will give you a good idea of the change in relative bearing and allow an estimate of CPA.
This is THE way to get accurate bearing in a seaway. (well, as accurate as you can get) The rougher the sea, the more leeway you have to give for extra CPA.

One item that comes to mind. In rough weather, any vessel should be allowing more CPA for allowance for inaccurate calculations. This works BOTH ways. But especially the SV. Don't Colregs already state that you must take into account the limitations and capabilities of the vessels involved? If you as a SV CAN'T derive a cpa (nevermind a safe CPA) how much are YOU following the Colregs?

Getting back to lights for anyone who is reading. Have you ever actually LOOKED at your vessels lights when heeled over? Have you actually cleaned the lens? Are you still running with the ORIGINAL nav lights and your boat is 10 years old? Just how good do you think your lights are? Invest in a new pair of RG, LEDs. These new lights are FANTASTIC.

I know how much my light comments irritate you. It IS an issue.

Final thought on your challenge question.

It appears to this Merchant Mariner who is ALSO a WAFI: When most WAFI's are on a collision course, or even THINK they are on a collision course they invariably try to shoot across the bow. WHY?

I believe I know why! They assume that they are going to be hit. So logic dictates, if I am going to be run down, then I may as well try to make it across the bow. This is flawed logic. This is assuming that you are going to be hit. As another poster said: the Merchie is only a maximum of 35 meters wide, and 300 meters long (on average). That is actually a pretty small target to hit. Since it is that small, don't TRY to go in front when in doubt. If there is doubt, that is where the collision will happen.
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Old 30-09-2012, 06:39   #499
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
If there is other ship traffic I may ignore the little bump, to make sure I don't have a BIG thud. Wrong?
Yes. I have never needed to ignore another vessel, because of other vessels. There should be no big thuds or little bumps
Quote:
It appears to this Merchant Mariner who is ALSO a WAFI: When most WAFI's are on a collision course, or even THINK they are on a collision course they invariably try to shoot across the bow. WHY?
I don't recall experiencing this (but then I don't stand on for "little bumps"). If you avoid an SV for rule 18, don't you normally go astern of it? Perhaps that is what the WAFIs you refer to are expecting? That's not to say that I haven't seen a lot of dumb action, by what I assume must have been WAFIs - tacking back towards me, after I've made a bold course change to avoid them has to be the most common bonehead move. Personally I think the MAFIs outnumber the WAFIs.
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Old 30-09-2012, 07:47   #500
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Out of all in that post, I was sure that would get a snark.

BUT, It is more proper to say: when prioritizing meeting vessels, there is a definite order of importance. The vessels that have to soonest TCPA, the closest CPA. Followed by the largest vessels that have the perceived worst maneuvering ability. Then add in multiple vessels, along with the occasional idiot (of whatever propulsion method) to keep track of. I would show a SV close aboard with a consistantly OPEN CPA to be not as important in the order of prioritization as one coming ONTO me but further away. So I choose to ignore for the time being the closer one, to concentrate on the more dangerous one. I may have been 'snarky' in my reply, and if that annoys some, I apologize. But looking at the 'big picture' is more important than getting mired in the details of 'You and I.' Isn't this what BRM teaches us? To look, listen, speak up, and include others in the decision making process? Not to hold everything internal? To make sure everyone else knows what is happening?

As you know, there is a larger picture out there. It seems from almost every post on here that it is 'The Yacht versus the Ship' When in fact it is all of the vessels, often within a 10 or 12 mile radius.

Regarding Mafi's I agree, but you almost NEVER see Mafi's out in the open ocean..... It scares them too much!

Quote:
If you avoid an SV for rule 18, don't you normally go astern of it? Perhaps that is what the WAFIs you refer to are expecting?
Not necessarily. often in inshore waters (that are not restricted) there is too much other traffic on the 'astern' direction. That would put me in more hazardous situation. When I can, I go astern. Sometimes, at several miles distance, all it takes is a small course correction to go to the other side of the SVs track. Then there is NO risk involved.

What I am getting out of this: It appears that the only situation that is being discussed here is a SV crossing the bow from Stbd to port. There are so many other incidents. If I have a ship in a safety fairway off my Stbd bow, and I am traveling inshore, a SV muddling along between us suddenly coming about and crossing my bow does NOT make me automatically turn to Stbd TOWARDS the ship which is in a fairway. Although I have done that, I have also gone hard to port, to get away from both vessels. I have turned full circle to stop my headway. I have slowed down. It depends upon the situation, and how far off the ship and SV was. This seems to be the point to me. There sometimes is NO hard and fast answer. It depends upon the circumstances.

MacG posted that his country has rules to the effect of: Vessels under 20 meters must NEVER impede the navigation of larger vessels.

Your earlier post about re writing the rules may be necessary. Why are there obvious different rules in some countries? THAT leads to confusion.
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Old 30-09-2012, 08:15   #501
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post

MacG posted that his country has rules to the effect of: Vessels under 20 meters must NEVER impede the navigation of larger vessels.

Your earlier post about re writing the rules may be necessary. Why are there obvious different rules in some countries? THAT leads to confusion.
I think that these rules in the Netherlands are with regard to Inland waterways, in Holland they have the Inland Waterways Police Regulations, which as far as I can see, are only printed in Dutch.
They will be similar to CEVNI which govern most European inland waterways, and will be something similar to the USA inland waterways regs.
On the high seas, Dutch vessels must comply with the Colregs, otherwise chaos would rule.
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Old 30-09-2012, 09:15   #502
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
I think that these rules in the Netherlands are with regard to Inland waterways, in Holland they have the Inland Waterways Police Regulations, which as far as I can see, are only printed in Dutch.
They will be similar to CEVNI which govern most European inland waterways, and will be something similar to the USA inland waterways regs.
On the high seas, Dutch vessels must comply with the Colregs, otherwise chaos would rule.

Inland- AND territorial/approaches. That is what is most important. High sea is of no such interest - one hardly meet problems there. It are the approaches and major shipping lanes that ask for steady watch/look-out.
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Old 30-09-2012, 09:31   #503
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Dutch Nav Reg card
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Old 30-09-2012, 09:44   #504
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I'm very late on this topic having recently joined the frey on this great website.
Couple of thoughts. 1) Use your 'bridge to bridge' channel to call ships. Too many people attempt communication on the emergency channel 2) Use the ship's MMSI number in your call which you can get at any of the AIS web sites with your smart phone(assuming you are in cell range) or braodband air card on your puter. When you call the ship by name or MMSI they are much more than obliged to respond to you.. 3) Install AIS even if only the receiver. Cheers, Jeffry
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Old 30-09-2012, 09:50   #505
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Bijlage bij de Scheepvaartverkeerswet, bedoeld in artikel 10, eerste lid, van deze wet

De scheepvaartwegen, bedoeld in artikel 10, eerste lid, van de Scheepvaartverkeerswet zijn de navolgende:

I.

1.
de Eemsmonding, zoals omschreven in Bijlage B van het Eems-Dollardverdrag (Trb. 1960, 69), met uitzondering van het gebied ten zuiden van de Geisedam, maar met inbegrip van:

a.
de scheepvaartweg vanaf de zeesluis te Delfzijl tot in het Oosterhornhaven;

b.
het bij de Eemsmonding aansluitende gedeelte van de territoriale zee dat ligt binnen het gebied begrensd door een lijn die loopt van de positie 5334'.7NO621'.90 naar 5334'.9NO613'.70, vandaar naar 5337'.1NO619'.50, vandaar naar 5339'.0NO627'10 en vandaar naar 5337'.5NO631'.20, onverminderd het bepaalde in artikel 40 van het Eems-Dollardverdrag;

2.
de Vlierede, waaronder wordt begrepen het gebied tussen de tonnenlijnen, liggende binnen een cirkel met een straal van een zeemijl, met als middelpunt de positie 5318'.0 N 0510'.9 O, en de Rede van Texel, waaronder wordt begrepen het gebied tussen de meridianen van 0444'.0 O en 0450'.0 O, aan de noordzijde begrensd door de zuidkust van het eiland Texel en vervolgens door de parallel van 5300'.0 N en aan de zuidzijde door de noordkust van het vasteland van de provincie Noord-Holland en voorts de Veerhaven en de buitenhaven tot aan de sluis van het Noordhollands kanaal;

3.
de bevaarbare scheepvaartwegen over de Waddenzee tussen de Vlierede, Terschelling en Vlieland tot aan de lijn die loopt over de posities 5321'.6 N 0512'.9 O en 5317'.8 N 0503'.6 O, Harlingen, Kornwerderzand, Den Oever, Oude Schild en de Rede van Texel.

II.

1. het gedeelte van de territoriale zee dat ligt binnen het gebied
begrensd door een lijn die loopt van de positie 5227'.9NO432'.00 naar 5227'.8NO431'.00, vandaar naar 5226'.0NO427'.80, vandaar naar 5226'.9NO419'.30, vandaar naar 5231'.9NO420'.90, vandaar naar 5230'.7NO431'.20 en vandaar naar 5228'.1NO432'.60;

2. het Noordzeekanaal;

3. de zijkanalen naar Beverwijk, naar Haarlem en naar Zaanstad;

4. het IJ tot aan de Oranjesluizen en de ingang van het Amsterdam-
Rijnkanaal;

III.

1. het gedeelte van de territoriale zee dat ligt binnen het gebied
begrensd door een lijn die loopt van het licht noorderpier naar 5207.04 N; 00400.00 O, vandaar naar 5207.40 N; 00351.36 O, vandaar naar 5207.40 N; 00345.00 O, vandaar naar 5204.84 N; 00340.97 O, vandaar naar 5157.21 N; 00341.98 O, en vandaar naar 5158.27 N; 00400.62 O;

2. de Maasmond, de Nieuwe Waterweg, het Breeddiep, het
Beerkanaal en het Calandkanaal;

3. het Hartelkanaal;

4. de Nieuwe Maas, de Koningshaven;

5. de Noord, de Rietbaan;

6. de Oude Maas, het Spui en de Beningen;

7. de Hollandse IJssel tot aan de stuw bij Krimpen aan de IJssel;

8. de Beneden Merwede tot aan Hardinxveld-Giessendam en het
Wantij;

9. de Dordtsche Kil, de Krabbegeul en het Mallegat;

10. het Hollandsch Diep ten westen van de Moerdijkbrug;

11. het Haringvliet en het Vuile Gat;

12. de Krammer benoorden de Krammersluizen, het Zuid-Vlije en het
Volkerak;

met inbegrip van de havens gelegen aan de onder I tot en met III genoemde scheepvaartwegen.

IV.

1. het gedeelte van de territoriale zee dat ligt binnen het gebied
begrensd door een lijn die loopt over de kerktorens van Aagtekerke en Domburg tot de positie 5137.0N, 0327.2O, vandaar naar de positie 5142.6N, 0341.6O;

2. de havenbekkens, havens, steigers en aanlegplaatsen die
gelegen zijn aan de Westerschelde;

3. de havenbekkens, havens, steigers en aanlegplaatsen die
gelegen zijn aan het Kanaal van Gent naar Terneuzen;

4. de Oosterschelde, het Keeten, het Mastgat, het Zijpe en de
Krammer bezuiden de Krammersluizen;

5. het Kanaal door Walcheren, met inbegrip van het Verbrede
Arnekanaal tot de spoorbrug;

6. het Kanaal door Zuid-Beveland;

7. het Veerse Meer; met inbegrip van de havens gelegen aan de
onder 1 en 4 tot en met 7 genoemde scheepvaartwegen.

The above mentioned (Dutch) waterways are subject to the rules as per
Binnenvaartpolitiereglement, the former Binnen aanvarings reglement
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Old 30-09-2012, 10:34   #506
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Out of all in that post, I was sure that would get a snark.
It wasn't meant to be snarky - tried to humorously point out what you wrote to quash the idea by some that commercial skippers don't give way to SVs. I had a fair inkling of what you really meant, but don't know if we're allowed to infer anything on this thread - so you have to be explicit

I have had to avoid WAFIs/MAFIs while RAM, so I know the idiots are out there. For the most part when meeting a SV, I've been required to stay clear and have never had a problem doing so - other than for those bow-seeking boneheads that tack after my turn . Having an equal opportunity for being the stand-on when meeting a MAFI, possibly explains why I tend to sound 5 short more frequently for them.

Good find on the Dutch navcard. I wasn't advocating a re-write of the rules btw. I am dismayed by certain countries that enact local rules that essentially work opposite to the colregs.
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Old 30-09-2012, 10:43   #507
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Thanks Cappy, found that one already, and its very similar to the Colregs, as it applies to inland waterways, as the card states, a vessel of less than 20m must keep out of the way of a vessel of more than 20m, basically its the same as Rule 9 of the Colregs.
I was thinking of MacG statement of
"This change (of Rule #18) is already long time effective in Holland."
Why would the Netherlands have their own version of Rule 18, as this Rule already states "Except where rule 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:"

A State can have its own rules concerning "roadsteads, harbors, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels", but this does not cover territorial waters.


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Old 30-09-2012, 10:51   #508
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

This topic has been a constant nagging thought in my mind since I was a young lad working on ferries. I often saw what appeared to be 'bone headed' to borrow a phrase moves by SV's in front of, beside, and around not just the vessel I was on, but even other SV's. I have studiously AVOIDED public discussion because this conversation always devolves into 'Sailboats have the right of way' and the door slams in my face.

It wasn't until Dockhead inquired on another commercial forum (and mentioned this forum) did I venture into the abyss. From both a professional and a personal standpoint, this seems like such a huge issue that needs understanding from both sides. The only reason I read the Colregs is because I have to! It is part of being professional. Calmly discussing these issues makes everyone involved learn more (even me).

But the issue would seem to be: How to get ALL sailors to (if not read this thread) read and join a discussion on the rules. Of course with some people that actually have an iota of knowledge about colregs to steer the direction of the conversation along?
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Old 30-09-2012, 10:55   #509
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

You guys are really beating this to death, but there are a few good posts in this thread.

In my experience most merchant vessels are watching and run under the Colregs. However, its the few percent who don't you have to watch out for. I've had give-way ships who steamed on and didn't answer the radio at 0300 (probably asleep), and I've had them see me in broad daylight and steam on. I've also heard a number of animated conversations between ships on Ch 16 which would indicated that at least one of them was not following the rules.

Collision avoidance isn't just about the rules, its about situational awareness. Regardless of what some posters think, a small boat will always have a better idea of the ships around than vice versa. The ships are bigger to see, have brighter lights, make better radar targets, and have more powerful AIS transmitters. You should be aware of a close CPA long before a ship is, and you can usually make the proper adjustments even before the ship detects your presence.

If your boat is on autopilot, you don't need radar, AIS, or HBC to determine if you have a problem. When I see a potential problem, I sit in my most comfortable watch-standing position, and line the target up with something on my boat--stanchion, dodger tube, pulpit, whatever. A few minutes later, I assume the same position and see if the target still lines up with the whatever. If it doesn't, I can tell from the direction the angle is changing whether the target is going to cross ahead or astern. If it still lines up with the whatever, its time to pay more attention, and to take action BEFORE THE COLREGS APPLY.

My action is usually to consult the AIS, which is the best invention to come along in some time, and more accurate, faster, cheaper, and less power hungry than radar. I heartily endorse getting a Class B transponder, with a display like the Vesper Watchmate which gives you the relative positions of the vessels at CPA, plus an AIS overlay on your chart system.

In open waters, if I am going to cross within 2 miles in front of a ship, I change course to go behind the ship. If I am in a near head-on situation, I go for a CPA of over 1 mile port-to-port, or over 2 miles if I want to go starboard-to-starboard (even at 2 miles I have had ships turn toward me and insist on going red-to-red). I do my course changes at a range of 8-10 miles, so that when I pop up as a target on the bridge at 6-8 miles the OOW doesn't have to take action. I also set my AIS alarm to 1 mile CPA and 45 minutes TCPA to give me plenty of time to act if I or my crew isn't paying enough attention--the external AIS alarm is the loudest 12v siren I could find at Radioshack.

In more restricted waters, I rely on the AIS chart overlay to see if the ship is in a marked channel or shipping lane. That allows me to predict the ship's course and speed changes, and modify the raw AIS data. I also don't hesitate to call the ships by name on the VHF and clarify things--in my admiralty court you are going to gain liability points if you don't use all means availabe to avoid a collision.

The AIS system is good, but it could be better. One of my pet peeves is that the Class B systems are required to transmit the UNFILTERED data from their internal GPS. I've logged the data my AIS puts out, and the COG varies by 15 degrees and the SOG varies by over a knot due to wave effects on a small boat. I don't have a problem with that when my system calculates CPA on a ship, because I use a 10 second average filter on my data, and the ship's data is stable. However, with other class B units, the CPA jumps around by as much as 0.5 miles in a seaway, and that's probably how I appear to a ship. I don't know what a WAFI is, but I'd say they are sitting on the committee which set the specs for Class B.
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Old 30-09-2012, 11:18   #510
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
Out of all in that post, I was sure that would get a snark.

BUT, It is more proper to say: when prioritizing meeting vessels, there is a definite order of importance. The vessels that have to soonest TCPA, the closest CPA. Followed by the largest vessels that have the perceived worst maneuvering ability. Then add in multiple vessels, along with the occasional idiot (of whatever propulsion method) to keep track of. I would show a SV close aboard with a consistantly OPEN CPA to be not as important in the order of prioritization as one coming ONTO me but further away. So I choose to ignore for the time being the closer one, to concentrate on the more dangerous one. I may have been 'snarky' in my reply, and if that annoys some, I apologize. But looking at the 'big picture' is more important than getting mired in the details of 'You and I.' Isn't this what BRM teaches us? To look, listen, speak up, and include others in the decision making process? Not to hold everything internal? To make sure everyone else knows what is happening?

As you know, there is a larger picture out there. It seems from almost every post on here that it is 'The Yacht versus the Ship' When in fact it is all of the vessels, often within a 10 or 12 mile radius.

Regarding Mafi's I agree, but you almost NEVER see Mafi's out in the open ocean..... It scares them too much!



Not necessarily. often in inshore waters (that are not restricted) there is too much other traffic on the 'astern' direction. That would put me in more hazardous situation. When I can, I go astern. Sometimes, at several miles distance, all it takes is a small course correction to go to the other side of the SVs track. Then there is NO risk involved.

What I am getting out of this: It appears that the only situation that is being discussed here is a SV crossing the bow from Stbd to port. There are so many other incidents. If I have a ship in a safety fairway off my Stbd bow, and I am traveling inshore, a SV muddling along between us suddenly coming about and crossing my bow does NOT make me automatically turn to Stbd TOWARDS the ship which is in a fairway. Although I have done that, I have also gone hard to port, to get away from both vessels. I have turned full circle to stop my headway. I have slowed down. It depends upon the situation, and how far off the ship and SV was. This seems to be the point to me. There sometimes is NO hard and fast answer. It depends upon the circumstances.

MacG posted that his country has rules to the effect of: Vessels under 20 meters must NEVER impede the navigation of larger vessels.

Your earlier post about re writing the rules may be necessary. Why are there obvious different rules in some countries? THAT leads to confusion.
I perfectly understand the "Big Bump" "Little Bump" statement of Cappy208. It's rational behavior.

I do the same thing. My little ship is a midget compared to his -- 31 95/100 tonnes, Thames Measure, but is probably about the same proportion bigger to a racing dinghy as my boat is to a fair sized coaster. Up to a certain distance my boat is more capable of creating a positive CPA than a little racing dinghy, but if we are within feet of each other, already not -- it becomes up to him to sort out the situation. If he tacks under my bows -- there's really nothing I can do. And if I am in the middle of avoiding a coastal freighter, I am not bloody well going to steer into that to avoid the little racing dinghy. That little crunch is not the worst thing which could happen to me if I get the priorities wrong.

We should expect nothing different.

Again I am reminded of the huge difference in perception of time and distance between us and them. What is "in extremis" to us is already long past that for them. A mile off and 0 CPA and the ship's helmsman is already closing his eyes and praying, and some of the WAFIs on here have only just noticed that the ship is there . . .

On another forum, an experienced English sailor said about this subject a pithy thing --

He said that if you detect a 0 CPA, start avoiding, NOW. Because they see us much further ahead than we do. If they have not started avoiding us by the time we detect the problem, then he's not going to avoid us -- either wilfully or he doesn't see us. So just start avoiding -- the Colregs allow the stand-on vessel to do that as soon as we have a reasonable belief that the give-way vessel is not going to take sufficient action.

I really liked that! I think there is more than a grain of truth in that.
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