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Old 17-09-2012, 11:50   #31
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

For those who want quick access to Colregs

US - Navigation Rules Online
Canada - http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C.R.C.,_c._1416.pdf
International - Sailtrain: IRPCS, Colregs, Rules of the Road, International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea for sail and motor yachts.

Some words you will NOT find in Colregs

- commercial
- right of way (except in US Inland Rule - 9 a ii)

Aside from rules 11-18, means of propulsion and size matters in narrow channels (Rule 9) and Traffic Separation Schemes (Rule 10) and with respect to navigation lights.

Are you required to carry Colregs? That depends in your home country.
Are you required to adhere to Colregs? Yes, which means you should know them; you do not have time to look up the answer.
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Old 17-09-2012, 11:56   #32
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
OK! You win!!

An aside.

Rick - you have no idea what memories this brings up. Last month I had to evacuate a crew member from a 44 foot sailboat onto a 1100 foot container ship mid way between Maui and Vancouver.
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Old 17-09-2012, 11:58   #33
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
WTF! Why does anybody need a copy of COLREGS when facing a potential collision situation???? GET OUT OF HARMS WAY AND LIVE AWHILE LONGER!

Foggy
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Originally Posted by rtbates View Post
EXACTLY
Simple, because of all the ways to get out of harms way, there is one right way and guess where it is found - oh yes the CR's. Other ways might work but you leave everyone else in the mix trying to second guess what you are doing - not so good in a crowded waterway.

Of course if you don't know the CRs, then you will just have to do it your own way but please remember the CRs were written as the best way to to save YSA and doing anything else is second rate, unprofessional and just plain .......

Last time I checked, there was nothing in the CRs that made a small sailboat force a collision with a big freighter but there was plenty of stuff that allowed a small sailboat avoid a collision with a big freighter. But if you don't know the CRs then staying well away is your ONLY safe option.
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Old 17-09-2012, 12:04   #34
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
An aside.

Rick - you have no idea what memories this brings up. Last month I had to evacuate a crew member from a 44 foot sailboat onto a 1100 foot container ship mid way between Maui and Vancouver.

Hope you didn't scrape your topsides. They are gargantuan, hopefully they lowered a boat. Nothing like a boat drill in the middle of the ocean.
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Old 17-09-2012, 12:09   #35
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Let Me say this !!Take all the col regs and all the other printed rules and use em for what there worth, T-Paper!! Cus if your stupid enough to try and be the sailboat or power boat IN THE RIGHT !! and mess about with any vessel even twice your size, I will be glad to dive on your wreck for stuff I can use aboard my boat !! Darn folks I know these rules also! But I wont put my vessel and my crew in Harms way, even to take the time to look up the rules, let alone take a chance of messing about with vessels that can and will sink me !! and anyone who will should stay home !! So the rest of us don't have to even think about them !! I will always give way to any vessel thats to big to mess with !! These folks who quote these rules always make me think that maybe they are the same ones who always get there butt kicked in bad bars cus they know there always right !! LOL Well thats My 2 Cents Rant !!!
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Old 17-09-2012, 12:10   #36
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Err... ..You simply can't have one without the other; they go together like a horse and carriage .
I didn't mean to imply that you can have one without the other. All I was trying to do was separate the written rules from the unwritten rules, like logic and good seamanship. In the event of a collision, I believe you will be held accountable to the written rules.
An example would be, say for instance, in a crossing situation I am the stand-on vessel. All of a sudden I realize that the other guy doesn't see me or know that I am the stand-on vessel. So now I take evasive action. Well, it turns out that he did see me, and was aiming at my stern to cross behind me which would have been the proper thing to do. Without knowing his intentions, I make a turn to avoid him and actually created the collision. I surrended my right of way as the stand-on vessel which should have maintained course and speed so now, not only am I in the wrong but have caused damage to another vessel and possibly personal injury. This does happen and happens more regularly than most would like to think. This is from second guessing without following the written rule.
I was commercial captain on crew boats and supply boats in the oil fields in the Gulf of Mexico. Arguably, the busiest boat traffic area in the world.
I did this over 20 years ago for a few years. I know the rules of the road and the importance of these written rules. When it comes to commercial traffic, radio communication is king. Don't hesitate to contact a freighter or tanker just because they are bigger. They will answer you, at least that has been my experience as a small boater.
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Old 17-09-2012, 12:24   #37
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I have a friend that was sailing down the coast several years ago. He saw a freighter and altered course to avoid it. Shortly thereafter the freighter was aiming at him again, he altered course again, freighter appeared to be actively trying to run him over. Next he hears over the radio a call to the Coast Guard telling them about some idiot sailboater that keeps altering course and getting in his way.

As the minority here have said, give the give way vessel a chance to do their thing before you the stand on vessel becomes unpredictable.

John
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Old 17-09-2012, 12:25   #38
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Clarification here

I do know that smaller boats should stay out of the way of larger boats whether written or not. That is just plain common sense. I will also leave a channel so that freighter can pass me. Traveling at only 5 or 6 knots creates its own set of navigation problems.
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Old 17-09-2012, 13:15   #39
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
Hope you didn't scrape your topsides. They are gargantuan, hopefully they lowered a boat. Nothing like a boat drill in the middle of the ocean.
No rescue boat. We pulled along side; destroyed the starboard sidelight, scratched the rub rail and deflated two fenders. We were both moving at 3 knots so that was probably some suction. The evacuee climbed a Jacob's ladder after being fitted with a harness and tether to the ship. The access port was 4.5 meters above the waterline.
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Old 17-09-2012, 13:44   #40
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Re: Clarification here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
I do know that smaller boats should stay out of the way of larger boats whether written or not. That is just plain common sense. I will also leave a channel so that freighter can pass me. Traveling at only 5 or 6 knots creates its own set of navigation problems.
That kind of thinking is going to create more problems than it solves. When the stand-on vessel behaves erratically, it can throw a wrench into the whole system. We shouldn't have to be guessing what constitutes "plain common sense" to Tony B and his brethren. The COLREGS are designed to prevent collisions by establishing predictable behaviors in crossing situations.

Other than for Rule Nine, there are no provisions in the COLREGS for smaller boats vs larger boats.

The COLREGS are the rules of the road. If you can't play by the rules, get out of the game.
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Old 17-09-2012, 13:58   #41
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Re: Clarification here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
That kind of thinking is going to create more problems than it solves. When the stand-on vessel behaves erratically, it can throw a wrench into the whole system. We shouldn't have to be guessing what constitutes "plain common sense" to Tony B and his brethren. The COLREGS are designed to prevent collisions by establishing predictable behaviors in crossing situations.

Other than for Rule Nine, there are no provisions in the COLREGS for smaller boats vs larger boats.

The COLREGS are the rules of the road. If you can't play by the rules, get out of the game.
Absolutely

I have had sailboats that were stand-on give way just as I did which put us onto a collision course.

If you are going do something different get on the radio and contact the other vessel. I have made arrangements to "pass green to green." when talking a a tug with a tow. BTW - even this is frowned upon in some circles.

Quote:
Wouldn't it be nice if Rule 1 (or Rule Zero!!) in the COLREGS stated that no violation of the rules are allowed by arrangements through voice communication or other kinds of communication. COLREGS are not perfect but they have existed for many years with good results. However, forced violations like the example above, must not be permitted. This should be addressed by an authority. We know where we stand and what has to be done. The Rules of the Road must not be downgraded.
MARS 2004

Quote:
In 1995, the judge in a collision case said "It is
very probable that the use of VHF radio for
conversation between these ships was a
contributory cause of this collision, if only
because it distracted the officers on watch
from paying careful attention to their radar. I
must repeat, in the hope that it will achieve
some publicity, what I have said on previous
occasions, that any attempt to use VHF to
agree the manner of passing is fraught with
the danger of misunderstanding. Marine
Superintendents would be well advised to
prohibit such use of VHF radio and to instruct
their officers to comply with the Collision
Regulations."
http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mgn167.pdf
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Old 17-09-2012, 14:12   #42
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Interesting post Raku, I never realized you had been criticised on CF for stating that "freighters and cruise ships, do not really see sailboats well".

I agree whole heartedly that it is difficult for large ships to see small yachts and we must never forget this. And I agree about the AIS point but I am surprised though about the claim that most maneuverable vessel is to give right of way in all sections of the CRs regarding ROW. My understanding is somewhat different .

I'm quite sure you *are* surprised, because ...

no one said that. HEEEERRRRE we go again ...
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Old 17-09-2012, 14:13   #43
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Let Me say this !!Take all the col regs and all the other printed rules and use em for what there worth, T-Paper!! Cus if your stupid enough to try and be the sailboat or power boat IN THE RIGHT !! and mess about with any vessel even twice your size, I will be glad to dive on your wreck for stuff I can use aboard my boat !! Darn folks I know these rules also! But I wont put my vessel and my crew in Harms way, even to take the time to look up the rules, let alone take a chance of messing about with vessels that can and will sink me !! and anyone who will should stay home !! So the rest of us don't have to even think about them !! I will always give way to any vessel thats to big to mess with !! These folks who quote these rules always make me think that maybe they are the same ones who always get there butt kicked in bad bars cus they know there always right !! LOL Well thats My 2 Cents Rant !!!

Maritime law supports your 2 cents rant.
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Old 17-09-2012, 14:17   #44
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I agree with those that say " don't stand on into danger". Hence for small boats the obvious effect is that small vessels should ensure they stay clear of potential collision situations. However when they are in such a situation, you should abide by the rules, unless it is obvious the give way vessel is not responding.

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Old 17-09-2012, 14:26   #45
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Another good source of information / interpretation.

Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road
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