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Old 25-09-2012, 15:18   #391
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

There is another thought here. As some have stated: they wait, look, listen and then, when/if they feel they have to do something. There is another alternative.

This is what is being done on the Merchant Vessels:

The merchant vessel has decided that you will either miss him, move, or that he will move. He has decided already, before most of you even are getting down to your 'decision' time/ distance!

There is another possibility for you. The Merchie has not even sighted you.

Both of these scenarios are solvable by anyone with a little knowledge.

If he is going to hit you, MOVE. If he is going to miss you, continue on.

If you are going to move, do it in a way that will not increase chances of a second encounter.

More and more I understand what TonyB. stated pages ago.
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Old 25-09-2012, 15:36   #392
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Has anybody changed their outlook about what they should do to avoid a collision after reading 387 posts? Just curious.

Foggy
Primary behavior will not change much, keep a constant eye on the ais/visual and make any course changes early, large enough to be identified and conform to the colregs.

But failing that I hope the mobile phone has enough of a 3g signal so i can log on here and ask.
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Old 25-09-2012, 16:21   #393
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

@Jackdale

I navigate in the busiest waters of this part of the Globe. Maneuvering Dutch-German inland waters, those in connection with the North Sea, have their own set of rules.
Oosterschelde is different from Westerschelde. Rhine is different from Merwede in certain circumstances.

The Netherlands know two sets of rules: 1) BAR - Binnen Aanvarings Reglement and 2)
ZAR - Zee Aanvarings Reglement regarding territorial waters at sea; thereafter international rules may apply.

Furthermore I know and am sure of that each international port has it' s own rules to enter the port, depending on the sort of traffic it hosts.
Try Dover or Felixstow, Ramsgate. Same counts for Rotterdam, IJmuiden, Antwerp, Elbe Estuary and so on. W/o specific patents you may not even sail the Rhine.

In short, and and one simple rule does not exist. COLREGS? Maybe, but on open sea only with no ports at short distance.

Norway has it' s own set of rules, f.e. to enter Bergen. It is a different world over here, don' t forget that.
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Old 25-09-2012, 16:36   #394
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Has anybody changed their outlook about what they should do to avoid a collision after reading 387 posts? Just curious.

Foggy
Not really but at the risk of sounding two faced...

Ships - 99% of the ships I encounter are constrained or restricted. I give the ships room. Primarily because I often doubt if they see me. The bridges are high and I am low on their horizon and once they get close I know they can't see me. It's like truck mirrors - "If you can't see my mirrors I can't see you." so if you can't see the bridge they definitely can't see you.

Ferries, fast ferries, pilot boats, tugs etc. - I stand on (when I am supposed to) and continuously evaluate. These guys usually wait till late but they are moving fast and so far I have had no collisions as their maneuver is a few degrees to pass - usually in front - grrr...

The 2 mile separation is something that is not really workable around these waters. Probably not even crossing the strait.

I doubt there are many commercial drivers here that have debated the rules so tirelessly and endlessly as has been done here from the comfort of our chairs.
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Old 25-09-2012, 16:42   #395
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Mac - we also have harbour regulations. Vancouver does not permit sailing after the Lion's Gate bridge. Victoria harbour has an aerodrome for seaplanes.
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Old 25-09-2012, 17:08   #396
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Some of the experienced commercial skippers want the yachties to follow the CRs and some just want them to stay well out of the way.
Wot, I may have it wrong - it's been hard to keep tally, but it seems to me that all the large ship skippers (incl. Dockhead's 10 friends) want the yachties to follow the CRs. Some, I emphasize some, of the small ship skippers (tug boats) say otherwise.
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Old 25-09-2012, 18:47   #397
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Originally Posted by cappy208
Yup. I have. This message is NOT getting across..... Here is the proof.

The first sentence is telling. Looking for any solid sign or direction. This is NOT rocket science. The merchie is either going on a Collision course or NOT. It is determinable. If so, then avoid. If not, go on about your leisurely sail. This does appear to be the method that is espoused by the majority of this forums resident 'experts'. All this is guesswork.

Remove the guesswork. Learn how to determine if risk of collision exists.
Are you critical of that post. And if so why.

I really think people forget, that in some congested areas of the world , we have to cross the shipping lanes ( and I don't mean TSSs) hence simply stating " get out of the way" is fine bit isn't the full story.

In the open ocean, with a single ship, avoidance is easy and I always change course once I have determined that there is a small CPA. By the way anyone sailing at night in heavy weather with a ship 5-7 miles away will smile at your

" This is NOT rocket science. The merchie is either going on a Collision course or NOT"

the determination of a ships route is actually quite difficult in such situations, On a clear day in fine weather it's a trival undertaking.

Again the problem is not the determination of collision, it's the actions taken subsequently. Most yachts quite rightly practice, the rule of tonnage" , it's the only way of ensuring you don't die. However in sone circumstances you have to cross busy areas and in those circumstances you really do take your life in your hands by hoping the COLREGS will be your guardian.

Dave
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Old 25-09-2012, 18:54   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208
There is another thought here. As some have stated: they wait, look, listen and then, when/if they feel they have to do something. There is another alternative.

This is what is being done on the Merchant Vessels:

The merchant vessel has decided that you will either miss him, move, or that he will move. He has decided already, before most of you even are getting down to your 'decision' time/ distance!

There is another possibility for you. The Merchie has not even sighted you.

Both of these scenarios are solvable by anyone with a little knowledge.

If he is going to hit you, MOVE. If he is going to miss you, continue on.

If you are going to move, do it in a way that will not increase chances of a second encounter.

More and more I understand what TonyB. stated pages ago.
Again this is a simplistic summary, that doesn't bear out real life. If I have a fast ship at 20 knots on a close CPA at night I have very few "MOVE " options. At 5 knots I can't even reliably get out of the cone or error ( or cone of danger ) in heavy weather the cone is even greater. All the time I'm working out his CPA he's getting closer. Yet the COLREGS are specific I'm meant to stand on.

In practice what saves the day is the ship is not on a zero CPA, hence he goes ahead or behind. But when you do get a problem one , there is a huge dilemna. Making simplistic statements like yours does not recognise the real world situation.

Dave
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Old 25-09-2012, 20:08   #399
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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This is the biggest issue when avoiding yachts with commercial vessels. Your yacht has a turning radii of its length. My vessel has a turning radius of 6 times its length. I am trying to make meeting plans with you at around 2 miles minimum. (sometimes less, if our apparent closure rate is really slow) Think of it this way. If you took a big box and put a couple pingpong balls (representing your turning radius) in it, there would be plenty of room to move them around, and keep them a long way apart. Now put a couple basketballs (representing My turning radius) in there. Now try to move the pingpong balls around. It gets crowded doesn't it!?

Meanwhile, I am looking out at 8, 10, 12 miles for a couple 900' container ships that are making my 500' tug look like a little boat. They are converging at a combined rate of closure of around 30 knots. That means I am going to have a CPA with them sometimes before you even get to me! At 30 knots, a ship and I are 12 miles apart may meet in under 24 minutes. It takes me around 7 minutes just to turn a complete circle. In the time it takes me to turn half way around (3,5 minutes) the ship is about 10.5 miles away! Now that I have avoided you, I have less time to get clear of the ship! Oh yeah, there is another one coming from the port bow at 14 miles. Great, I just turned 45 degrees to miss you, now I have two more ships coming, and you decide that you really want to go back into port now, come about, and that time I took to avoid you was wasted, and it put both oncoming ships right on top of me. Now I have to avoid you AGAIN!

Yes, it happens. Avoiding one often makes two more near misses! Especially if I have to turn to miss you again.

I really didn't have to make this scenario up. It happens all the time. A simple radiotelephone call would go a LONG way to make my day. Maybe even yours!
Thank you for saying that. When I said such comments about big ships and maneuverability, I got skewered.
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Old 25-09-2012, 20:22   #400
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
.
The 2 mile separation is something that is not really workable around these waters. Probably not even crossing the strait.
Sheesh. Yeah. I'd have to leave my boat in its slip 24/7 if I took that advice.
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Old 25-09-2012, 20:26   #401
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Norway has it' s own set of rules, f.e. to enter Bergen. It is a different world over here, don' t forget that.
I've gone into Bergen--via the fiords--on the bridge of a ship. I was amazed at how relaxed everyone is about ships and yachts coming close to each other.

No two-mile separations there!
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Old 25-09-2012, 21:02   #402
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post

The 2 mile separation is something that is not really workable around these waters. Probably not even crossing the strait.
In the San Francisco estuary, distances among boats/ships are frequently in terms of fractions of a mile.

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Old 26-09-2012, 02:51   #403
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Has anybody changed their outlook about what they should do to avoid a collision after reading 387 posts? Just curious.

Foggy
Well I can say I have learnt a few helpful things from this thread. Talking on board DH’s comments about big ships maneuvering early and well before a CPA of say 5 miles, I am now going to assume that:

In an open sea crossing encounter when I am standing on (within the CRs) and the CPA getting around 4 or 5 miles, then I have not been seen (or have been ignored). I used to think that 2 miles was a reasonable decision point with regard to been seen or not.

I used to be comfortable with a potential CPA of 1 mile before taking my own avoiding action; I will now take action around 2 miles. Weather permitting, if I can’t stop, tack, gybe or heave to within 2 or 3 cables (usually much less), then I must be asleep or severely sleep deprived . 2 miles gives me at least 10x factor of safety in sufficiently altering course to avoid a collision. This should have zero impact of the big ship as either he doesn’t know I am around or he has already ignored me.

I have also learnt there is no common agreement as what is best so as usual, I had better just make my own judgment. I will continue to follow the rules and stay out of harms way.
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Old 26-09-2012, 03:03   #404
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Wot, I may have it wrong - it's been hard to keep tally, but it seems to me that all the large ship skippers (incl. Dockhead's 10 friends) want the yachties to follow the CRs. Some, I emphasize some, of the small ship skippers (tug boats) say otherwise.
Yes, you are probably correct; I have been lumping all the commercial guys into one pot. It would be better to say large ship skippers like us following the CRs, small commercial ship skippers - not so much
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Old 26-09-2012, 06:23   #405
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Originally Posted by foggysail
Has anybody changed their outlook about what they should do to avoid a collision after reading 387 posts? Just curious.

Foggy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post

I have also learnt there is no common agreement as what is best so as usual, I had better just make my own judgment. I will continue to follow the rules and stay out of harms way.
IMHO, you are a wise cruiser!

Foggy
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