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Old 25-09-2012, 07:59   #376
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

We stand on keeping our options open, meanwhile looking for any solid/sign/deviations from him that shows he has acknowledged us.

If all fails on his part we take evasive action at the time we deem appropriate, that action is obvious and decisive. And not confusing....

If heaven forbid he takes a very late action now putting us back into jeopardy then we do anything we can to avoid further problems.

HOWEVER if we are out at sea we do not claim unnecessary turf preferring to plan our sail to avoid obvious paths and situations.

We have spent the last 4months as target practice for Italians in their FERETTI'S they see you from a distance and will always cross your bows, if you duck at the last moment they'll cut you in half, there is a good side though, nearly always they have naked ladies on mattresses on the foredeck which brings me to mention again how good the high point is on these 440's......

Good Thread
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Old 25-09-2012, 11:33   #377
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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As a personal aside to Goboatingnow: I too thought I knew everything once. Now I am sure I don't. But after a 32 year career at sea, I am pretty confident of how to do it safely, without incident and efficiently. But, above ALL I know that I always have something to learn, or to share with others to teach. "It" is rarely the other guys fault.
yes anyone sailing knows that its a continuous learning process. I do recognise the excellent responses from several professional mariners.

What I was trying to say, is that the majority of times in my experience, do merchant vessels give way to sailing vessels, Nor do they make any attempt to contact the sailing vessel. ( remember Im in Europe and in my experience the lack of as common language works against this ). In practice the COLREGS dont exist for sailing vessels. Why, because if we test the COLREGs we could die.

SO its not about lights on a sailboat, its about the general view I have arrived at that in effect we are ignored. Now that may be a good idea. But its not currently the rules.

Note , I fully understand that there are many WAFIs, especially around busy port entrances, of for their sailing fix, dont know what is going on. But I was referring to cruising sailors who encounter fast ships

I fully endorse the AIS transponder, They should be a legal fit equipment for sailboats in my opinion. Its getting too dangerous out there

dave
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Old 25-09-2012, 11:51   #378
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I reckon that Betty will say WTF, if these guys can't agree, why bother with something so complex as the CRs, it probably won't happen to me and off she will sail, leaving as much confusion in her wake as this thread generates.

You mean I didn't have to read 374 posts to learn that I am going to continue to do what I have always done?

Sheesh!

Where is the thumb down smiley?
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Old 25-09-2012, 11:52   #379
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I quite disagree. Try the Amsterdam-Rijnkanaal and you will learn how wrong you are.
Or, the Noordzeekanaal or Nieuwe Waterweg or approaches to Rotterdam.
No merchantvessel will give you the way. Local law prevails.
Or, approaches to Ostende.

Or: the Channel. It is your task and responsibility to stay out of the way.
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Old 25-09-2012, 12:51   #380
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Or: the Channel. It is your task and responsibility to stay out of the way.
I must respectfully disagree. I have not sailed into Rotterdam or Ostende, but in the Channel, 90% of commercial vessels are well run and behave as required by the Colregs. If you follow the Colregs yourself, you will have no problems.
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Old 25-09-2012, 13:02   #381
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Here is a quick analysis of nearly 400 posts that Betty Bareboat can take away and digest.

About half the experienced yachties will stand on as required by the CRs and the other half won't, they prefer just to stay well out of the way.

Some of the experienced commercial skippers want the yachties to follow the CRs and some just want them to stay well out of the way.

I reckon that Betty will say WTF, if these guys can't agree, why bother with something so complex as the CRs, it probably won't happen to me and off she will sail, leaving as much confusion in her wake as this thread generates.

I laughed a lot at this. Very nicely put!
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Old 25-09-2012, 13:16   #382
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Here is a quick analysis of nearly 400 posts that Betty Bareboat can take away and digest.

About half the experienced yachties will stand on as required by the CRs and the other half won't, they prefer just to stay well out of the way.

Some of the experienced commercial skippers want the yachties to follow the CRs and some just want them to stay well out of the way.

I reckon that Betty will say WTF, if these guys can't agree, why bother with something so complex as the CRs, it probably won't happen to me and off she will sail, leaving as much confusion in her wake as this thread generates.

And then some will chose to stay well out of the way, then to follow the CRs if they can not stay out of the way; but maybe not.
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Old 25-09-2012, 13:23   #383
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Frankly speaking I am not investigating if a 20.000 tonner will give me right of way. Quite unhealthy; the more we are more or less brainwashed by the adagio that pleasurecraft does not go first when ROW maybe predict so.

In the Netherlands you have no ROW over a commercial vessel. COLREGS may apply to open sea but again, I am not going to check if those rules really do apply.
I keep my distance.

Forget any COLREG when in territorial waters. You have none over a merchant/commercial vessel, whatever it is, tug, barge or ferry or anything that is in professional service.
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Old 25-09-2012, 13:35   #384
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by slowsailor45 View Post


to request a specific CPA that "I'm a sailing vessel, and I have the RIGHT-OF-WAY!"
Cheers,
Mike

If I had a dollar for everytime I heard that on the radio,....In the middle of one of the top 10 busiest shipping chanels......
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Old 25-09-2012, 13:42   #385
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Bottom line if you are in the middle of the ocean, carry on, other ships will avoid you....If you are in a narrow congested channel, chances are they cannot.

It is unwise to cut in front of a ship that is bigger than you, or going much faster than you. Ships don't have brakes.

As a sailboat you are the slowest, smallest ship out there. Stay out of the way.
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Old 25-09-2012, 13:44   #386
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

MacG brings up an interesting point. Nations are allowed to have special rules; Canada has its Modifications (http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C.R.C.,_c._1416.pdf), the US has Inland Rules (Navigation Rules Online), Europe has CEVNI (http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/t...SC3-115r3e.pdf). Any mariner visiting one of these countries needs to be cognizant of these rules.

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1 (b) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere with the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads, harbors, rivers, lakes, or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall conform as closely as possible to these Rules.
But MacG is imlying that rules are very different from Colregs which seems to violate the last sentence of Rule 1(a)

Can you point out the rules that conform to your contention?
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Old 25-09-2012, 14:09   #387
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Has anybody changed their outlook about what they should do to avoid a collision after reading 387 posts? Just curious.

Foggy
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Old 25-09-2012, 14:28   #388
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Can you point out the rules that conform to your contention?
In the US inland rules there are six substantive differences and several other minutiae.


1. There is NO distinction of being constrained by draft in inland waters. (All vessels are supposed to be aware of their draft in relation to the surrounding waters.)

2. Whistle signals: International 1 or 2 blasts means "I AM altering course to...." Inland 1 or two blasts is ASKING for permission to alter, and must be met with an agreement of the same whistle signal.

3. Vessels proceeding down a river With current have right of way over up and cross bound vessels.

4. The US has a 'special flashing light' (yellow) used on the bow of barges being towed by pushing (either ahead or along side) in inland waters.

5. Us has NO WIG designation. They have apparently not figured out how to 'fly' them over the pond yet.

6. The Whistle light is white in International, and Yellow in US INland. BUT, if fitted either way, is acceptable for inland.
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Old 25-09-2012, 14:38   #389
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Has anybody changed their outlook about what they should do to avoid a collision after reading 387 posts? Just curious.

Foggy
Yup. I have. This message is NOT getting across..... Here is the proof.

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Lagoon 440 We stand on keeping our options open, meanwhile looking for any solid/sign/deviations from him that shows he has acknowledged us.

If all fails on his part we take evasive action at the time we deem appropriate, that action is obvious and decisive. And not confusing....


If heaven forbid he takes a very late action now putting us back into jeopardy then we do anything we can to avoid further problems.
The first sentence is telling. Looking for any solid sign or direction. This is NOT rocket science. The merchie is either going on a Collision course or NOT. It is determinable. If so, then avoid. If not, go on about your leisurely sail. This does appear to be the method that is espoused by the majority of this forums resident 'experts'. All this is guesswork.

Remove the guesswork. Learn how to determine if risk of collision exists.
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Old 25-09-2012, 14:44   #390
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

And Foggy, when I get home, I will PM you and we can meet down at 'Betsy's Diner' for a nosh and discuss this in person!
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