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Old 22-09-2012, 04:59   #331
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Yes, they hate our nav lights.

They say, with astonishment, that they encounter blow boats with anchor lights on, or steaming lights when they're under sail.

They say that lenses are dirty or crazed and they can't see our lights.

They told a story of a wooden sailboat in the Med with no radar reflector which they would never have seen except that he lit up his sail with a spotlight minutes before a collision -- they avoided him at the last moment.

They like the "red over green, sailing machine" light.

I come away from this with the idea that everyone should throw away all the 1nm lights and use 2nm lights on every sailboat regardless of size, or maybe even bigger if they will fit.
Pardon me for dragging up this post - this thread is way too fast moving for me to stay current
I am happy to accept the criticism of poor light management in general but I can't see how any big ship could tell if the steaming light should be on or off when a sailing yacht is under way.

Surely there is no way they could tell if you were motor-sailing or not. I know that none would see my prop wash, my exhaust or hear my motor from the bridge of a big boy. If my steaming light is on, I most probably have the engine on! Not many of us like wasting electricity when purely sailing.
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:04   #332
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Pardon me for dragging up this post - this thread is way too fast moving for me to stay current
I am happy to accept the criticism of poor light management in general but I can't see how any big ship could tell if the steaming light should be on or off when a sailing yacht is under way.

Surely there is no way they could tell if you were motor-sailing or not. I know that none would see my prop wash, my exhaust or hear my motor from the bridge of a big boy. If my steaming light is on, I most probably have the engine on! Not many of us like wasting electricity when purely sailing.
Um, I think they could. On my boat, the steaming light is rated to 3 miles, which means in clear weather it must be visible from 4 or 5 easily. They'll see the tricolor above (or deck level light below) and see the height relationship to the steaming light, which on my boat is about 20 feet up the mast. It could only be a steaming light.

On the other hand I do agree that most sailboats with a steaming light on are surely motor-sailing!
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:14   #333
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Um, I think they could. On my boat, the steaming light is rated to 3 miles, which means in clear weather it must be visible from 4 or 5 easily. They'll see the tricolor above (or deck level light below) and see the height relationship to the steaming light, which on my boat is about 20 feet up the mast. It could only be a steaming light.

On the other hand I do agree that most sailboats with a steaming light on are surely motor-sailing!
Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough .

The point I was trying to make was that when the big boys criticised the WAFIs for sailing with a steaming light on, how the heck would they know if it should be off!
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:19   #334
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Perhaps I didn't write clearly enough .

The point I was trying to make was that when the big boys criticised the WAFIs for sailing with a steaming light on, how the heck would they know if it should be off!
Maybe because he's standing on although he's approaching from the big boy's port bow?
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Old 22-09-2012, 05:31   #335
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Maybe because he's standing on although he's approaching from the big boy's port bow?
Fair call
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Old 22-09-2012, 08:48   #336
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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One P.S. --

He said that at a certain point if you are still on a 0 CPA then you should step away from the radar set and simply aim the bow of your boat at the stern of the ship, and keep it aimed there -- noting that we will be changing course in an arc during this time.

A simple, safe manuever to pass behind another vessel without having to do any kind of calculations -- something which won't overload our pea-sized WAFI brains, I guess.
I have a LOT of sailing hours in the Bay of Panama, so I pretty much learned to sail constrained by the constant presence of big boats, both in draft limiting channels and in open waters all heading towards the same narrow point of access, the entrance to the canal. They were all on tight time schedules.

The boats I was in ranged from little bitty sunfish, Catalina 22's to 45' trimarans.

I lived by this; when in close quarters give way and pass by their stern. I have a maneuverability they can't begin to match and I always put that nimbleness to good use.

I would hold my general course, do nothing erratic, and then adjust to pass behind them. No matter what tack I was on.

It just seemed like good common sense.

Interesting read Dockhead... illustrates what different beasts small boats are compared to the big behemoths. If just seems as if there is no easy answer.

And the new mast lights being installed shortly? Rated for 3 mile visibility. With bright down lights on the spreader to illuminate the deck.

I just want to be SEEN.
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Old 22-09-2012, 11:09   #337
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I assume you use the old "gazillion lumens flashlight shone obliquely on the main" trick, then?

If you've ever seen a boat do this on a dark night at a distance, it really is noticeable. Looks like a large triangle-shaped nightlight's been switched on. Even from the deck of another sailboat, it's easily seen three or four miles off.

As for maneuvering, I too aim for the stern knowing by the time I get there, they will be a couple of miles past me. They take lots of time and distance to make even a wide turn, but to slow, stop and back down on a reciprocal course? That would take the better part of a hour!
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Old 22-09-2012, 13:46   #338
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

just ahead of your port beam.


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17(c)
A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.


The big problem with this maneuver, and why it is prohibited is that it requires a turn toward the other vessel increasing the chance of collision.

In this case you are 1 mile from the other ships path? Why would you want to make any maneuver that will bring you closer than that?

Standon = suicide...what if he didn't see you???
Turn to port = you are still in danger, what if you miss-estimated his speed, or he slowed dow to give more time to turn? You just turned a near miss into collision.
Turn to starboard 90degs, you just turned a crossing into a passing, Now you are really the standon vessel, and if you judged correctly will miss by 1 mile.

I would 180 tack, (depending on wind a 30 sec turn), If he hasn't seen me I will pass by 2 miles. If he has he will see me go from a constant heading on his polaris to a sternward heading, clear miss. If tracking by Radar a no brainer that I am now moving away instead of toward. I can do this before he even starts to turn, (Why would he turn toward a slower moving boat off of his starboard???).
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Old 22-09-2012, 13:51   #339
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

TonyB's, and others advice to turn toward the stern is in a close quarters situation. Freighters are both RAM, CBD in a narrow channel.

Standon = suicide.
Trying to cross in front?? Maybe suicide.

Leave channel, in most cases you can.
Cross at stern = everybody alive and happy.

Next time you're in this situation use your VHF, ask the freighter Captain, if he would prefer you follow COLREGS or just get out of the Bludi way!!
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Old 22-09-2012, 15:30   #340
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Tony

Rule 17(c) applies to TWO POWER-DRIVEN VESSELS.

If he altered course to pass your stern, it would be starboard.

If I was concerned while under power, I would stop.

If sailing which is not covered in 17(c), I would heave-to.
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Old 22-09-2012, 18:09   #341
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

Hard to believe we are still talking about this.

Get an AIS class B; contact the radio operator; arrange a passing and/or aim for the stern.
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Old 22-09-2012, 19:50   #342
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

This conversation reminds me of sailing with my ex. in the Chesapeake. If she was on watch, and I was snoozing below, she would always be a panic waking me up when we were 2 miles from the shipping channel and there was a container ship heading up the Bay 4 miles away.She would be in a panic asking what should she do? I would tell her, don't hit it, at least miss it by a foot. She never saw the humor in that. We would still be 1.75 miles from the channel when it would pass us.
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Old 22-09-2012, 20:35   #343
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I'm with you on the miss mark ; -)

I only got close enough to get blasted by the horn occasionally. You could sorta see the blue smoke coming outta the bridge if I got closer than they liked...
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Old 22-09-2012, 23:18   #344
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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I'm with you on the miss mark ; -)

I only got close enough to get blasted by the horn occasionally. You could sorta see the blue smoke coming outta the bridge if I got closer than they liked...
You may be joking but a one horn blast is not a "get out of my way" blast or a warning blast.

It is not unusual to get a blast in our channel.
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Old 22-09-2012, 23:32   #345
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

err.... I only got the three horn blast VERY occasionally.... It was crowded in the canal... And I had to sail thru it to get out of my marina...
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