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Old 21-09-2012, 09:00   #301
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
They say, with astonishment, that they encounter blow boats with anchor lights on, or steaming lights when they're under sail.
I fear there would be even more astonishment if they read this thread and discovered how many "cruisers" were unfamiliar with the COLREGS. (Or to hear someone who claims to have offshore experience brag that his radar broke five years ago and he hasn't bothered to fix it.)

We've had armchair skippers on this forum advise others that, regardless of the lights mandated by the COLREGS, you should turn on every light you have while offshore: steaming light, anchor light, and deck lights. It's not only wrong, it's dangerously wrong... as is some of the advice that's been given on this thread. Anyone can jump on this forum and claim to have expertise, or even to have USCG certification. My worry is that someone new to sailing, perusing a thread such as this one, will follow the bad advice which seems so comonsensical.

Lets not forget that all those commercial seamen advised us to maintain course and speed when we are the stand-on vessel offshore.
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Old 21-09-2012, 10:07   #302
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
:dead horsebeat:

Are you guys about done arguing semantics and the difference between inference and implication?
+1

Really.

Maybe you guys should get a room, eh? It's hard to watch all this love, for us guys who've been at sea for a while far from our wives . . .
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Old 21-09-2012, 10:10   #303
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I fear there would be even more astonishment if they read this thread and discovered how many "cruisers" were unfamiliar with the COLREGS. . . .
.
Oh, I don't think they would be surprised. I heard several times that they assume that 99% of "yachters" (that's the other, the nicer word they use for us) don't know the Colregs, and are thus prone to unpredictable maneuvers, and are thus a menace. One of the reasons why they automatically steer a wide berth around us (they say) in open water without being too fussed about who is the stand-on and who is the give-way vessel. They don't particularly trust us to know the steps to that dance which is a Colregs crossing.

The implication is that they think it is unbelievable that we are even allowed to go to sea without knowing them through and through, as they do.
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Old 21-09-2012, 10:24   #304
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
+1

Really.

Maybe you guys should get a room, eh? It's hard to watch all this love, for us guys who've been at sea for a while far from our wives . . .

I've dropped (and filtered) . One person can't have an argument. But ... everyone has to do it, or it won't work.
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Old 21-09-2012, 10:26   #305
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

"
Originally Posted by Bash
I fear there would be even more astonishment if they read this thread and discovered how many "cruisers" were unfamiliar with the COLREGS. . . .
.

Oh, I don't think they would be surprised. I heard several times that they assume that 99% of "yachters" (that's the other, the nicer word they use for us) don't know the Colregs, and are thus prone to unpredictable maneuvers, and are thus a menace. One of the reasons why they automatically steer a wide berth around us (they say) in open water without being too fussed about who is the stand-on and who is the give-way vessel. They don't particularly trust us to know the steps to that dance which is a Colregs crossing.

The implication is that they think it is unbelievable that we are even allowed to go to sea without knowing them through and through, as they do. "

The only reason people have even a passing familiarity with the rules for driving on land is that you have to prove that knowledge in order to get a license.

As long as the only requirement to get on the water is to have access to a watercraft, this is how it will be.
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Old 21-09-2012, 10:41   #306
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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The only reason people have even a passing familiarity with the rules for driving on land is that you have to prove that knowledge in order to get a license.
I don't think you would survive long on the road if you didn't know that you need to drive on the right side of two-way roads, that a red light means "stop", that a yield sign means give way, that if you are turning left without a turn arrow or main road sign [Europe], you must give way, that a green light means you need to go (not may go if you feel like, or maybe just stand there). The Colregs are not fundamentally more complicated than that, although of course there is a bigger volume of material.

So very, very few drivers on the road, if any at all, suffer from the kind of utter ignorance which some cruisers display and even urge on others. Imagine someone advising a young driver -- "don't pay attention to the colors on the traffic light -- that's all fussy theory or maybe just to make them look pretty -- if you see a big truck coming just dive off the road, or maybe, just stop in the middle of the road and freeze, until he goes by."
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Old 21-09-2012, 11:23   #307
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I have COLREGS on board and we all know the rules, but what I taught my kids as we were traveling through a freighter channel, "I really don't care about who is right, he is bigger and might makes right" Now this is while in a narrow freighter channel with draft limitations. Re-iterating the earlier statements, STAY WELL CLEAR
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Old 21-09-2012, 11:29   #308
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by sailing_jack View Post
I have COLREGS on board and we all know the rules, but what I taught my kids as we were traveling through a freighter channel, "I really don't care about who is right, he is bigger and might makes right" Now this is while in a narrow freighter channel with draft limitations. Re-iterating the earlier statements, STAY WELL CLEAR
In a channel, that is exactly what you're supposed to do!
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Old 21-09-2012, 12:56   #309
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
One P.S. --

One captain recommended the maneuver which Tony was talking about.

He said that at a certain point if you are still on a 0 CPA then you should step away from the radar set and simply aim the bow of your boat at the stern of the ship, and keep it aimed there -- noting that we will be changing course in an arc during this time.

A simple, safe manuever to pass behind another vessel without having to do any kind of calculations -- something which won't overload our pea-sized WAFI brains, I guess.

Sounds like a good tip.
I would only do this after positive contact and agreement over the VHF first. If not, the freighter would think I was still on a collision course because his radar tracking would always show me on a comtinuous intersect meeting and therefore think I was going to cross his bow.

If contact could not be made, I would make a 90 degree turn and run a parallel reciprocal course and pass across his stern. Given the distance and speed of some of the larger vesels, we are only talking minutes, very few minutes, probably no more than 3 to 5 minutes.
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Old 21-09-2012, 13:02   #310
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
I would only do this after positive contact and agreement over the VHF first. If not, the freighter would think I was still on a collision course because his radar tracking would always show me on a comtinuous intersect meeting and therefore think I was going to cross his bow.

If contact could not be made, I would make a 90 degree turn and run a parallel reciprocal course and pass across his stern. Given the distance and speed of some of the larger vesels, we are only talking minutes, very few minutes, probably no more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Yeah, that's precisely what I do. If it's a right angle crossing, at 2 miles out, I make a 90 degree turn onto a reciprocal course (usually requiring a tack). After I'm well clear of him, I tack back onto my old course across his wake. It means I never get closer to him than 2 miles. No fuss, no muss. I don't bother to agree this on VHF although after this discussion I am going to be much more active about using the radio.
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Old 21-09-2012, 13:16   #311
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

I don't know why this tickled my funnybone so much, but I laughed for a long, long time when I read this. Commercial mariners' joke about Colregs and sailboats:

What are the four cases where sail gives way to power?

Answer:

1. When the sailboat is in the shadow of the ships side and is becalmed,
2. When the sailboat is confused about what he sees.
3. When the sailboat is smaller that whatever else it is about to hit.
4. When the sailboat is exhibiting sound judgment.


ROTFLMAO.

Stern note to the beginners on here -- this is a JOKE. Lest we next get into a heated debate about the precise meaning of "confused about what he sees".
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Old 21-09-2012, 13:35   #312
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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In clear visibility you will be readily visible to the horizon - remember with the height of their bridges, their distance to horizon can be 9 miles or more. Obviously colour of your vessel/sails can have an effect on your being seen; and you'll usually be more visible with your sails up. If there is haze, fog, rain, smoke, whitecaps, whatever then you'll be lessvisible. Your best way to gauge how visible you are, is to note the range at which you can make out the merchant vessel
Although the hills on the opposite side of the strait a mile away were vaguely visible (out of view to the left), this sailboat is barely visible at only an eighth of a mile distant. White hull color (or sail), the overwhelmingly favorite sailboat color scheme, doesn't help to be seen in fog.



Dark hull and sails would be more visible in this situation. Need some light/bright colors too for different lighting situations such as displayed by C. Coot (my trawler).

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Old 21-09-2012, 13:40   #313
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Originally Posted by Lodesman

Notwithstanding that rule 17.c applies to power-driven vessels, do you not consider it imprudent to alter to port? If you're sailing at 5 kts and the freighter is steaming at 25 kts, you'll be fine on his stbd bow, yet he will be just ahead of your port beam.
Sorry if it's that fine he would be clearly going to pass ahead so I would keep going , However even as the stand on vessel I would never, unless I had to, willingly pass under the bow of a ship, I run the plots, either he passes clear of me or he initiates a clear turn to starboard to obviously pass under my stern ( like I've seen that happen lots. Otherwise I'll assume he hasn't seen me or more commonly couldnt be bothered .

Dave
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Old 21-09-2012, 15:51   #314
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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Sorry if it's that fine he would be clearly going to pass ahead so I would keep going , However even as the stand on vessel I would never, unless I had to, willingly pass under the bow of a ship, I run the plots, either he passes clear of me or he initiates a clear turn to starboard to obviously pass under my stern ( like I've seen that happen lots. Otherwise I'll assume he hasn't seen me or more commonly couldnt be bothered .

Dave
Sorry, you misunderstand the situation. You are sailing on a course of north at 5 kts. At a bearing of 282, range of 5 miles there is a freighter on a course of east at 25 kts. You are closing on a steady bearing, and in 12 minutes will be trying to occupy the same piece of ocean - that is now 1 mile in front of you. Do you turn to port? What about TonyB or Dockhead?
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Old 21-09-2012, 16:11   #315
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Re: Freighters vs. sailboats

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In a channel, that is exactly what you're supposed to do!
Dockhead,

This is treading into territory where we have previously agreed to disagree: Sailboat Right of Way

By any chance, did you ever receive a response from the RYA?
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